Saturday, 7 February 2009

Nope.

All right, so the conversation at Nine Deuce's has turned to kinky porn.

Specifically, to kink.com, a rather famous/major producer of the stuff.

I'm not sure how deep I want to delve into this, here. Personally, I am not at all anti-porn. I think that even when the industry is full of abuses, it is an entirely unproductive move to attempt to dismantle it. And if, as many anti-porn feminists claim, you're not for directly dismantling it, then you're just talking -- sitting around with your friends, enjoying the titillation of outdoing one another with your professions of disgust.

And personally, I have a couple of videos from MenInPain on this computer. So I might be biased. (Defensive, I guess they'd say. Then again, they DID claim F/m doesn't matter. Immunity: It's FUN.)

But, that said, I do understand many women's wariness of pornography. BDSM pornography, with its depictions of pain and domination, can only compound that wariness. And I don't mean to imply that anti-porn, pro-BDSM people aren't welcome here; they are.

All that said, though? This, here:
This shit ain’t revolutionary, it’s so fucking obvious and stupid that I’d laugh if it didn’t look so much like RAPE. If you have that kind of dark side, it might be best to leave it unexplored. Or kill yourself (if you’re the customer, that is).
Is NOT ON. It's just not.

Not when people with stigmatized sexualities DO kill themselves. I considered it more than once myself, for the record.

Not that this would make me, mind you. Even at my most insecure and unstable, some fool on the Internet thinking she's the snark queen for saying something like this would never have pushed me over the edge.

But it's inappropriate.

Notice that my saying this does not mean I think she should be forbidden from saying it, or that in Utopia she wouldn't say it. I'm not one for that either. I don't think it is productive to say to someone that there's a problem with her venting her dark desires -- in this case, that people she's frightened of (the maledom boogeyman in the dark) die, in droves.

Because people can and do have those feelings. Those feelings are part of what we're discussing, here.

Instead, what I object to is the way this is used: one, as a demonstration of her skill with rhetoric, and two, as a way to rile other people up politically.

That's what disturbs me. Reading the sentiment that I should die used as a rallying cry.

38 comments:

Gaina said...

I followed the link from Ren's blog and I wish I hadn't. The 'suicide' comment was just vile, insensitive and wrong. How would she feel if a white person had said 'if you are white and you want to date black people you should kill yourself?'....or if you like having sex with someone the same gender as you?? Why would that be more offensive that what she said?

I also nearly gagged at her defence in Ren's blog that she was trying to be oh-so compassionate to this poor little girlie who was obviously *so* inferior to her because she likes something that the blog author doesn't?

Actually, when I was reading the original paragraph she quoted from the original blog, I was noticing how much kindness and 'treats' this lady was getting and she was getting it WILLINGLY, because he wanted to do it, not just 'going through the motions' like a lot of socially acceptable couples do. I have a friend who is in a dom/sub relationship and she helped me to see how subs exert a lot of control in a relationship through submission and 'allowing' the other person to be (or at least feel) in control.

Within the feminist/female sub debate, it honestly makes me wonder who the 'smarter cookie' really is!

That sub/dom arrangement wouldn't be my cup of tea, but you know what? If it gives pleasure to someone else, that's none of my business.

Trinity said...

I didn't like either of the entries she quoted from. But I think it's really weird to just go "this upset me, see!" when you've just been making a political point. It's like... what is that? It reads as illustrating your point, as though we are supposed to take those two posts as particularly representative.

And that's always a dangerous thing to do when you're not offering proof for the claim.

But proof gets in the way of style, don'cha know.

Habu said...

"If you have that kind of dark side, it might be best to leave it unexplored. Or kill yourself"

Yeah, I caught on that bit too.

For her, the notion of people like us existing in (her) world is just too frightening.

She would feel more comfortable if people like ourselves were either not here or at minimum not visible.

Since she's apparently not the type who feels the need to rid the world of us, herself personally, she'd rather we just "opt out."

A lot cleaner and neater that way.

Certainly no blood on her hands. No, certainly not.

The the instinct to purge those she finds so frightening, so terrifying, etc. lies just beneath the surface.

The difference being of course, radical feminist Leather womyn such as myself feel no need to purge the universe of the likes of her.

She who is so quick to condemn has never heard of me, knows nothing about me, and certainly isn't reading my (at times) "submissive" womyn's blogging in relation to a male partner.

I am after all both S/switch and Bi. Being such, I therefore fall straight on into the exception bin for her, that she so conveniently dismisses and refuses to discuss.

Womyn living within the context of consensual power exchange with other womyn is most certainly NOT on the agenda over there.

Of course our "individual experiences" are dismissed as she'd rather only discuss what she perceives as some twisted version of experiences on on the whole (what a handy way to dismiss any womyn who would dare disagree, and her own experiences.)

Nope, she'd rather bemoan the (commercial fetish) fate of the armory building, a building she herself by her own admission once coveted and now chalks up to having in essence, fallen into the hands of the enemy.

Seriously, gal, it's just real estate and sex, get over yourself already.

Sex the likes of which she both clearly has a fascination with and yet insists she sickened by.

This clearly qualifies her as having an opinion we should all listen to about on such matters- not so much.

Funny, I don't find myself writing post after post about whatever kind of sex she may (or may not) be having.

yyzian said...

I'd be interested in her answer to the question:

"How did you want these people to kill themselves?"

Trinity said...

"How did you want these people to kill themselves?"

<morbid>Pills, probably. Nice and quiet and soothing, like a Good Woman.</morbid>

Nine Deuce said...

Oh, come on Trinity. Are you really calling me a misogynist?

Trinity said...

"Oh, come on Trinity. Are you really calling me a misogynist?"

No, I'm making a point. Which is merrily cavorting over your head.

I don't think you're a misogynist. I think you're someone who is behaving like a total asshole because you have an audience to praise, pet, and encourage you.

Which is a shame IMO, as you are actually smart and interesting. What a waste.

antiprincess said...

Sex the likes of which she both clearly has a fascination with and yet insists she sickened by.

hee hee - reminds me of a movie I saw once, Habu... :)

think maybe the lady doth protest too much?

Oh, come on Trinity. Are you really calling me a misogynist?

she might not, but I might.

insofar as you have no respect for kinky women, neither their intellect, their emotions, nor their agency as human beings, holding them beneath contempt - yeah, I might at least allow as you have a dislike of these women strong enough to qualify as "hate".

which is a shame.

you know, ND, there might be a kinky woman, even a submissive woman, sitting right next to you in some Women's Studies class getting straight A's. someone you admire, even. she might be blogging women's issues. you might link to her. she might be stuffing envelopes right next to you, putting up posters right next to you, doing clinic defense right next to you, marching arm in arm with you, putting in just the same amount of time and effort and passion and resources as you - you might even have had a post-event drink with her, maybe wanted to be her friend, and she maybe wanted to be yours, and isn't it too bad that she can't open up to you, and be her authentic self with you, because you have no respect for "those people"? and hasn't she walked the walk enough, doesn't she deserve your respect for all the work she's done right alongside you?

look, I'm sorry for ranting. that made a lot more sense in my head than typed out in words.

Nine Deuce said...

Once again, it isn't submissive women I have beef with, it's dom men. I'm the radical feminist here, the one who hates men (har har), remember? I've said over and over that I can sort of understand submissive women and some elements of BDSM, but that doesn't mean I have to think there's nothing problematic involved in BDSM, especially M/f BDSM. I asked in my post what would draw a woman to the kind of stuff I saw on that site, and I'd really like to know. Wouldn't I be infantilizing kinky women more by refusing to present my questions for fear of offending their sensibilities? But anyway, my extreme suspicion is reserved for dominant men.

Oh, and to clarify, the "kill yourself" bit (which was rhetorical and a bit over the top on purpose) was not aimed at submissive women. It was aimed at men who get off on seeing women tortured.

antiprincess - I'm not a college freshman in a Women's Studies class. I'm a 31-year-old PhD candidate, and I'm frankly tired of being dismissed as a naive kid and marginalized with this "women's studies" shit.

I know perfectly well that there are women I know who are into this or that sexual practice that I don't get. They all know I'm still on their team. I've never said that women who are into kink can't be feminists, EVER. I have said that M/f BDSM cannot be presented as a feminist act as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think that any sexual activity is a feminist act. I've said this before: only feminist activism is a feminist act, and sex is a private (hence not activist) activity.

Renegade Evolution said...

Okay, forgetting COMPLETELY here for a moment that there are DOMINANT women out there...who engage with SUB women out there...not that I would know shit about that or anything....

I feel dreadingly compelled to point something out:

ND:

When jumping all over the sexuality and desires of Dom men, you are ALSO jumping all over the sexualities and desires of Sub Women who are partnered with and/or fucking /engaging with those men. What you are doing, in essence, is looking at those women and saying "that man you are with, whom I actually know nothing about, or what he is like over all, is sick twisted abusive fuck, and your say and feelings on the matter mean jack and shit. That's what he is."

Which, why yes...WTF?

subversive_sub said...

Yeah, what Ren said.

N-D, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me that you feel some sort of affinity with or sympathy for me as a submissive women if you're going to suggest that the person I'm partnered with and love is a misogynist who should kill himself.

Yeah, the whole "sex" thing, for us straight sub women? It doesn't really work if we don't have any dom guys to fuck. You really can't just condemn half of the party as being fucked up -- that half is exactly what we want, so what does that make us?

Lissy said...

"When jumping all over the sexuality and desires of Dom men, you are ALSO jumping all over the sexualities and desires of Sub Women who are partnered with and/or fucking /engaging with those men."

Yes! Yes! Yes! Thank you!

Trinity said...

"I have said that M/f BDSM cannot be presented as a feminist act as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think that any sexual activity is a feminist act. I've said this before: only feminist activism is a feminist act, and sex is a private (hence not activist) activity."

Why do I smell backpedaling?

ND, you're not the one who's been saying this, though. You've been saying BDSM isn't feminist, arguing against, as far as I can tell, some imaginary person who seems to claim that doing anything you feel like ever is some great stride for the future of all women.

If you want to keep score here, I'm the one who has been saying the quoted.

Maybe you're just saying we agree, but it sounds an awful lot like you're parroting me here.

Trinity said...

"You really can't just condemn half of the party as being fucked up -- that half is exactly what we want, so what does that make us?"

This.

"I don't hate bottoms, I hate tops" is, uh, weird. So all these people walking around going "Hmm, I'd really like to meet someone into THIS" are awesome as long as they never do? WTF?

antiprincess said...

antiprincess - I'm not a college freshman in a Women's Studies class. I'm a 31-year-old PhD candidate, and I'm frankly tired of being dismissed as a naive kid and marginalized with this "women's studies" shit.

well, we have something in common. neither of us are first-year college students anymore.

and yes, doesn't it suck to be patronized, however inadvertently?

(I mean, I thought there were graduate level women's studies courses.)

I know perfectly well that there are women I know who are into this or that sexual practice that I don't get. They all know I'm still on their team.

no, we don't. that's the point.

I've never said that women who are into kink can't be feminists, EVER. I have said that M/f BDSM cannot be presented as a feminist act as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think that any sexual activity is a feminist act. I've said this before: only feminist activism is a feminist act, and sex is a private (hence not activist) activity.

really? only feminist activism is a feminist act?

Nine Deuce said...

I'm not parroting anyone, Trinity. I've said on several occasions before this one that I think people too often make the assumption that because they're feminists everything they do is a feminist act.

Trinity said...

Then we're in agreement there, ND.

antiprincess said...

I've said on several occasions before this one that I think people too often make the assumption that because they're feminists everything they do is a feminist act.

well, sure - but who is the final arbiter of what is/ain't a feminist act, at the end of the day?

how do you know which acts are feminist and which aren't?

antiprincess said...

and how many times can one do a non-feminist act, or how many non-feminist acts can one do, before one can't call herself a feminist anymore?

can I do seventeen feminist acts in one day, and one non-feminist one, and still call myself a feminist? what if that one non-feminist act involves me doing something submissively kinky? does that knock me out of the box even if the seventeen feminist acts I did were really really feminist?

Rosa said...

I think that the idea that we - women into BDSM, women like myself, a feminist submissve - haven't noticed that it may be problematic is deeply patronising. Admittedly I'm bi so I could just sub to women but I DON'T WANT TO!!!!

I'm in a relationship with a Dom man - and yes I find the comment "oh I don't have a problem with *you* but I think your partner should just off and kill himself" talking about someone I happen to love excuse me! It's condescending in the extreme to suggest that I haven't thought - at length - about the problematic issues involved.

Feminist anti-BDSM arguments had me tied in (internal) knots for years because I really believed that my sexual desires were "wrong" - I didn't get into BDSM until I was 34 years old and that was one of the biggest reasons, I hated my kinky fantasies and that side of myself. I'm much happier, more comfortable and confident in myself since I have accepted that aspect of my personality.

Dw3t-Hthr said...

ND, I don't know you're on my side.

Primarily because everything you say makes it very, very clear to me that you think I shouldn't exist.

Your "understandings" of submissive women are condescending and factually inaccurate, and that's the nicest thing I can say about your position.

Trinity said...

"Primarily because everything you say makes it very, very clear to me that you think I shouldn't exist."

Oh, she doesn't think you shouldn't exist, Kiya.

She just thinks your liege is a violent asshole.

It's not you. It's just who you love.

Now doesn't that make you feel so much better about this whole thing?

Dw3t-Hthr said...

S'a good thing I'm pregnant, because it means I just don't have the energy to throttle people over teh intarwebs.

I still think she makes it clear that I shouldn't exist -- with the rhetoric about how my sexuality is essentially rooted in shame and shamefulness, how it's about having an excuse to be sexual when I'm not culturally "allowed", so that if the culture were less broken about female sexuality I'd vanish in a puff of theory.

That she also has more overtly condemnatory language directed towards my liege does not change the steady grinding undermining paternalistic contempt aimed at women like me, cloaked though it may be in unwanted pity. The sicky-sweet faux concern does not adequately mask the Bad Women And Their Horrible Enablers core.

Trinity said...

I'm not disagreeing at all, Kiya. I'm just snarking.

"We didn't mean you" is an old defense with these people, too.

They "don't mean me" either, despite that I've enjoyed the very porn ND thinks is grounds for suicide. (As I've said here and at her place, I don't really do so any more, because I've got some questions about how they do things.)

But it's always "I didn't mean you."

Dw3t-Hthr said...

Oh yeah, I know you're just disagreeing. I just have this, y'know, hammer ....

Dw3t-Hthr said...

Not disagreeing, even.

EthylBenzene said...

I'm going to de-lurk briefly for this:

"S'a good thing I'm pregnant, because it means I just don't have the energy to throttle people over teh intarwebs."

Congrats and good luck!

Cheshire said...

N-D, others have already said similar things but what you said hit a nerve.

My partner is a Dom male who owns a fairly large collection of Kink.com pornography. He suffers from depression, I live in fear that the disease that both he and I suffer from will take him from me. So don't you fucking dare say we are on the same side, you want the most important person in my life to die of a disease that they have suffered from for most of there life, a disease which makes their life hell. Why, because his entertainment doesn't fit your politics?

DON'T YOU DARE CLAIM YOU CARE FOR ME.

WE ARE NOT ON THE SAME SIDE

Don't fucking bother.

Nik said...

"I asked in my post what would draw a woman to the kind of stuff I saw on that site, and I'd really like to know. "

Meta tried to explain it and you blew her off. I tried to explain it as well, and you were nothing but a complete ass.

"But anyway, my extreme suspicion is reserved for dominant men. "

Of course...because men are inherently evil. Or something.

"Oh, and to clarify, the "kill yourself" bit (which was rhetorical and a bit over the top on purpose) was not aimed at submissive women. It was aimed at men who get off on seeing women tortured."

Other people have responded to this more eloquently, but it should be pretty obvious that telling the people who submissive women love to kill themselves IS aimed at submissive women.

"I'm not a college freshman in a Women's Studies class. I'm a 31-year-old PhD candidate, and I'm frankly tired of being dismissed as a naive kid and marginalized with this "women's studies" shit."

Then grow up, and start acting like it. If you are going to treat Meta, and others, as you have then treating you like a kid is treating you nicely. You deserve words a lot harsher than some slight marginalization.

Zula said...

FWIW, ND, I'm a female feminist submissive who would love to own kink.com vids, but am too poor to spend money on porn. (Woe is the college student.) Why? Because I like to pretend I'm the woman in the video! It's called identifying with the protagonist, to use literary terminology. Not that difficult of a concept to understand.

Trinity said...

Nik,

Do you have copies of the posts of yours that sent ND into such a lather? I'm wondering just what it is you said that has her convinced you're a violent baboon. I mean, I gather she thinks all male tops are, but I don't think I've *ever* seen her quite this hostile, and I'm fascinated. Do you have copies of the posts she zapped?

Or is it just a reaction to the word "Master?"

My boy's called me that, too. Heh.

Nik said...

T,

Unfortunately I don't. There were a bunch she never posted. I've started responding to stuff random people say at 9-2 on Ren's blog, so if you want to see a representation of my responses, its there. Some of the ones she deleted, some were less so. I will probably try to write a fairly scathing summary of this whole bullshit fairly soon.

I honestly think what really got her into an uproar, is that I challenged her definition of feminism. She obviously doesn't like men in general, doesn't like doms, and definitely doesn't like people who challenge her bullshit assertions, and I seem to fit in all 3. That, and if you haven't noticed, I can have a fairly combative style sometimes. I used to spend a lot of time arguing politics online and compared to that, what I say here is like kisses from a butterfly.

Trinity said...

Nik,

Yeah, online feminists tend to get like that. There's a whole culture built around getting the theory right and a lot of what I now see as the ladies' version of verbal humiliation/hazing rituals that one goes through to become accepted as a true feminist online. It involves a lot of reading "feminist 101" until you understand the clique's language and beliefs well enough to do some combination of:

1) Not saying anything that defies their understanding of the theory

and/or

2) Holding your ground well enough that they simply cannot drive you off.

Trinity said...

...and holding your ground in a calm way usually. Perhaps an angry way, but a way that makes you look more intelligent.

There are very real hierarchies in "feminist space." It's just a cultural tradition to pretend they're not there.

Sort of like the whole "girls don't perspire; we GLISTEN" and "proper ladies' farts smell like pink powder puffs!" except the daintiness moves to rejection of assuming/according power.

It can BE there, but no one can ADMIT to it. That's why D/sers drive them battybattybats... because we keep pointing at the woman behind the curtain.

Nik said...

T,

Well if you want to read an angry, but intelligent, rant from yours truly, feel free to meander over to Metas blog. I posted it there a few minutes ago.

Some of them have absolutely no excuse for acting how they are. Its like rights are just a weird, sick, club that they feel only the privileged get to join and fight for.

antiprincess said...

Sort of like the whole "girls don't perspire; we GLISTEN" and "proper ladies' farts smell like pink powder puffs!" except the daintiness moves to rejection of assuming/according power.

genius, you.

hexy said...

I know I said this at Ren's... but I'll repeat it here. I'm certainly not about to post it over there.

I'm a sadistic top. I'm also a repeated, failed suicide.

I can't even begin to describe how reading that comment made me feel.

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