tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post68948863118391655..comments2024-01-26T00:11:44.309-08:00Comments on let them eat pro-sm feminist safe spaces: Having the Conversationvertehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07568745576713009205noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-15099676734308024872013-08-22T22:01:48.878-07:002013-08-22T22:01:48.878-07:00Great and useful site! It's worthful in my lif...Great and useful site! It's worthful in my lifetime~ Also, I think we should learn more in the future, so I choose this site to study! Not only are <a href="http://www.ibaikal.com/other-cell-phone-accessories-cid71" rel="nofollow">Sony L36h case</a> there many friends, but also there are many resoures~<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05381932693032104615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-37796382484983688052013-08-20T02:10:42.256-07:002013-08-20T02:10:42.256-07:00Was looking for link up! 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Nobody stopped you from commenting here, nobody is being 'intolerant', they're <I>just disagreeing.</I><BR/><BR/>Of course, I've noticed that it's also true that people who hold insupportable positions often get mightily pissed off when they're asked to support those positions.<BR/><BR/>"The Earth is flat!"<BR/>"Really? Let's see some evidence."<BR/>"YOUUUUU'RE INTOLERRRRRANT OF DIIIISSENT!"<BR/><BR/>---MycaMycahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06169534197143405966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-49578198015953518882007-11-03T15:38:00.000-07:002007-11-03T15:38:00.000-07:00right on. I think this endless "debate" would go s...right on. I think this endless "debate" would go so much further if people would actually agree to listen to members of the community, rather than invoking some nebulous "fact" that most sadomasochists do it at home quietly. Maybe that is so -- but if it is, these people could at least do us all the favor of backing up their claims.<BR/><BR/>There's something to be said for those "citation" things I mentioned a few comments up. Really.<BR/><BR/>It's not easy to find studies of BDSM, and most that I've seen are studies of the community simply because it's easy to distribute surveys among the right people if you do go to people who self-label... but it's quite possible to look at broader populations, too.<BR/><BR/>If these people REALLY cared, they'd find something, I bet.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-39132283366538218922007-11-03T15:07:00.000-07:002007-11-03T15:07:00.000-07:00"Um, look, Haitch... BDSM as abuse? NOT THE POINT ..."Um, look, Haitch... BDSM as abuse? NOT THE POINT OF THE THREAD! We are specifically talking about NON-ABUSIVE BDSM AND HOW TO CONVEY THAT TO PEOPLE!<BR/><BR/>In fact, we are talking about how FED UP we are with people CONFLATING THE TWO!<BR/><BR/>Therefore, if you want to keep talking, go to your own blog, or a different post further down, or another blog talking about it... not this post."<BR/><BR/>Gods, seriously. WHY can't people hear what people who actually have lived experience have to say? Are we speaking some kind of other language? I am getting really royally sick of hearing people with no experience of BDSM whatsoever tell me what my relationship is like and that all of my friends are abusers. <BR/><BR/>FUCK OFF. You don't live my life and you don't know the people I know.<BR/><BR/>I'm SICK TO DEATH of BDSM concern trolls.EthylBenzenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08809013705471938666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-78933981171421177982007-11-02T14:18:00.000-07:002007-11-02T14:18:00.000-07:00yes! times a hundred.yes! times a hundred.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-39241878664840881482007-11-02T14:11:00.000-07:002007-11-02T14:11:00.000-07:00and yes to the vanilla relationship thing. I've fo...<I>and yes to the vanilla relationship thing. I've found personally that vanilla relationships tend to include the kind of invisible or subtle power relation that's crazy-making because any time you try to call attention to it, the other person can go "but we're EQUALS, I'd never do THAT! Much less to control you!"<BR/><BR/>which creates just enough doubt that they can do precisely that.</I><BR/><BR/>As explained by this person<BR/><BR/>http://al.turtlecounseling.com/blog/_archives/2005/3/5/400379.html<BR/><BR/>whom I took to task for his use of "Master/slave" when it's seen as a positive term in BDSM, and he and I worked together on the positive depiction he gives here:<BR/><BR/>http://al.turtlecounseling.com/blog/_archives/2007/2/25/2764456.html<BR/><BR/>(see point 2, which is actually the third point down)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-73775941811640034942007-11-02T12:19:00.000-07:002007-11-02T12:19:00.000-07:00My experience with abusive relationships was in a ...My experience with abusive relationships was in a completely vanilla situation with a whole hell of a lot of problems. But some of the factors were that I was dealing with someone who had a lot of self-hatred to project outward, an inability to maintain any sense of perspective, a lack of respect for other people as independent entities, and a penchant for putting his own gratification above everything else.<BR/><BR/>And, y'know, someone might say "OMG that guy would be a <I>terrible</I> dom" but the fact of the matter is that there was no kink in that relationship whatsoever. And when he crossed a major boundary and made me recognise that he wasn't going to get any better, I left his ass.<BR/><BR/>Back to "If they're nice to you and treat the waiter like shit, they're not nice".Dw3t-Hthrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584245136407694660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-14983152316808640182007-11-02T12:06:00.000-07:002007-11-02T12:06:00.000-07:00Um, look, Haitch... BDSM as abuse? NOT THE POINT O...Um, look, Haitch... BDSM as abuse? NOT THE POINT OF THE THREAD! We are specifically talking about NON-ABUSIVE BDSM AND HOW TO CONVEY THAT TO PEOPLE!<BR/> <BR/>In fact, we are talking about how FED UP we are with people CONFLATING THE TWO!<BR/><BR/>Therefore, if you want to keep talking, go to your own blog, or a different post further down, or another blog talking about it... not this post.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01476739382162784615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-36344496321648583322007-11-02T11:37:00.000-07:002007-11-02T11:37:00.000-07:00and yes to the vanilla relationship thing. I've fo...and yes to the vanilla relationship thing. I've found personally that vanilla relationships tend to include the kind of invisible or subtle power relation that's crazy-making because any time you try to call attention to it, the other person can go "but we're EQUALS, I'd never do THAT! Much less to control you!"<BR/><BR/>which creates just enough doubt that they can do precisely that.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-70705742386873840352007-11-02T11:35:00.000-07:002007-11-02T11:35:00.000-07:00But Kiya, you're STIFLING DISSENT! Because comment...But Kiya, you're STIFLING DISSENT! Because commenting about the prevalence (or not) of abusers in BDSM is so incredibly important that it has to take place even on an activist post about getting people thinking about us mundane and boring people who AREN'T abusers.<BR/><BR/>but ah, that's just not juicy, y'know.<BR/><BR/>and it couldn't POSSIBLY BE the case that people could just comment to an actually relevant post, or post to their own blog (my toppy tendrils, they reach ALL OVER THE BLOGOVERSE, FEAR MEEEEEE)Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-10067430662720190082007-11-02T11:29:00.000-07:002007-11-02T11:29:00.000-07:00Guess I was insufficiently reverent of someone's a...Guess I was insufficiently reverent of someone's attempt to subvert the discussion, huh?Dw3t-Hthrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584245136407694660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-11020519082641409422007-11-02T09:12:00.000-07:002007-11-02T09:12:00.000-07:00Bye. If you do ever feel like coming back to actua...Bye. If you do ever feel like coming back to actually discuss how to counter negative stereotypes, feel free to do so. If you want to talk about how many abusers are in the scene or where, go ahead and do that too -- but understand that bringing it up in a political post intended to be about combating negative presuppositions ***among people who aren't familiar with the community*** is the wrong place for such a topic.<BR/><BR/>Later.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-80914805358131520472007-11-02T09:02:00.000-07:002007-11-02T09:02:00.000-07:00I don't want 'fairness to the negative stereotypes...I don't want 'fairness to the negative stereotypes'; who on earth would? I don't want stereotyping, positive or negative, that's all. I have made arguments, and I'm not trolling. Consider the possibility that you did misunderstand. Goodbye.Haitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16442735110943300397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-56390729035123877562007-11-02T08:30:00.000-07:002007-11-02T08:30:00.000-07:00Dissenting voices? Look, if you want to say that B...Dissenting voices? Look, if you want to say that BDSM is inherently prone to abuse in ways that other roles, relationship styles, etc. are not: do it. Make arguments. Give the citations I asked for a bunch of comments up.<BR/><BR/>The fact that you're not doing it indicates to me, and it looks like to a bunch of others as well, that you're here to troll. Or at least to show off your brain in a peacocky, "look at me!" way, which has absolutely nothing to do with countering negative stereotypes (which was the point of dw3t-hthr's post.)<BR/><BR/>What you want seems to be "fairness" to the negative steretypes. I'm not sure why. What does that do to help people who have an understanding of what BDSM is that comes from wives' tales and sensationalistic media coverage understand what many of us are about in a fairer way?Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-75031367381813298982007-11-02T08:14:00.000-07:002007-11-02T08:14:00.000-07:00Well, you guys really do have an impressive tolera...Well, you guys really do have an impressive tolerance for dissent. Trinity, how you can regard my piece on De Sade as a paean is beyond comprehension. Sarcasm? Didn't look like it, more like plain incomprehension.<BR/><BR/>Nothing I've posted has been anti BDSM. I'm still somewhat amazed at the level of blatant misrepresentation in the responses to my comment ... And at people who think that calling someone 'dude' or pressing keys till they repeat is some kind of argument.<BR/><BR/>What I'm against is simplistic characteristation of BDSM, whether by those who are pro or those who are anti. I'm also not too keen on 'coterie SM', which is what I appear to have stumbled into.<BR/><BR/>I suppose there's no point continuing to respond. But I'll continue to read it and, if you've read my own blog, you'll see that I've spoken very warmly of this one. I still think it has a lot going for it. All I thought was, you were being rather idealist in this particular post. Sorry you don't like dissenting voices.Haitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16442735110943300397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-74106413798873467222007-11-02T08:00:00.000-07:002007-11-02T08:00:00.000-07:00Haitch,If you're so anti-BDSM, what the fuck are y...Haitch,<BR/><BR/>If you're so anti-BDSM, what the fuck are you doing on a pro-BDSM web site? The NAME OF THE BLOG should tell you we are pro.<BR/><BR/>And by the way? Your little paean to Sade on your blog? YAWN. Don't get me wrong, the guy is a fascinating writer and I agree that too many people don't read him... but to think that he's the last word on the subject just because people coined a word after his name? Stupid.<BR/><BR/>If "essentialism" as you use it means what I think it does, it seems to me you're using it there.<BR/><BR/>And the "death instinct" bullshit's as old as Freud. I want to *hurt* people. I can't hurt a corpse, hon.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-81587981546088985732007-11-02T03:39:00.000-07:002007-11-02T03:39:00.000-07:00sorry, I must have missed the big placard somewher...sorry, I must have missed the big placard somewhere that says dissent is bad. You're all so right, BDSM people are just wonderful. I was only teasing.<BR/><BR/>Catch you all in 'Heads in the Sand 101'.Haitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16442735110943300397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-60127918986003135912007-11-02T00:27:00.000-07:002007-11-02T00:27:00.000-07:00apart from that, admittedly I flunked angel pin-da...<I>apart from that, admittedly I flunked angel pin-dancing 101, but I'm fairly certain you don't need all that shit to say, "BDSM IS TOO full of abusers," yanno.</I><BR/><BR/>And honestly, that sort of angel pin-dancing nonsense is part of why I started listing things off to start with. There's this sort of sidelong insinuation that anyone who's into this stuff has to be either a menace to society or a victim waiting for an abuser, and it's constant, and it's worth saying, "Actually, no, having these desires doesn't mean that."<BR/><BR/>And the point that has clearly been missed is that none of this claims that people who are abusive don't exist -- just that <I>equating</I> kinksters and abusers is offensive bullshit. This guy thinks that it's "idealistic" to say things like, "No, actually, I'm not a walking victim". Or "gay kinksters exist". Or "It's possible to distinguish between fantasy and reality." Or "not everyone does all of B&D D&S S&M".<BR/><BR/>In other words, it's idealistic and apparently unreasonable to point out facts. Don't get diverted by the whole 'but, but, but the abuuuuuuuuuse' thing, it's a diversionary tactic, wave the red cape in the hope that nobody notices the irrelevance of the interjection, that nobody sees that once again the kinky people are supposed to prove that they're not abusers or victims, rather than talking about what we actually <I>are</I>, for <I>real</I>, in our <I>lives</I>, rather than the wank fantasies of philosophers on teh intarwebs.Dw3t-Hthrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584245136407694660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-1371126978299349482007-11-02T00:05:00.000-07:002007-11-02T00:05:00.000-07:00Isn't this discussion a bit idealising? Dude, if m...<I>Isn't this discussion a bit idealising? </I><BR/><BR/>Dude, if my life were idealised I wouldn't have nitwits coming around and expressing this kind of neurotic disbelief in my actual lived experience.Dw3t-Hthrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584245136407694660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-85717578875794071502007-11-01T20:35:00.000-07:002007-11-01T20:35:00.000-07:00Haitch, your argument that BDSM discussion must ad...Haitch, your argument that BDSM discussion must address abusive BDSM relationships reminds me of how some people always somehow manage to extend discussions of homosexuality to include paedophilia.<BR/><BR/>Abusive relationships are bad, of course, and we all know this. But they shouldn't define BDSM in any particular way, nor is BDSM peculiarly vulnerable to abusive relationships.<BR/><BR/>Healthy BDSM relationships are built on consent, and no pro-BDSM person needs to add qualifications about relationships without consent any more than we need to add "but some husbands abuse their wives" whenever discussing marriage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-25291806801077725152007-11-01T19:34:00.000-07:002007-11-01T19:34:00.000-07:00Popper? Great at parties. apart from that, admit...Popper? Great at parties. <BR/><BR/>apart from that, admittedly I flunked angel pin-dancing 101, but I'm fairly certain you don't need all that shit to say, "BDSM IS TOO full of abusers," yanno.belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-44827962927753160412007-11-01T18:44:00.000-07:002007-11-01T18:44:00.000-07:00I may be misunderstanding you simply because it's ...I may be misunderstanding you simply because it's been a long time since I gave a damn about is and ought outside of moral contexts, or since I heard the word "essentialism" used outside of a discussion of gender and how people of various genders are expected to behave or the bodies they are expected to have.<BR/><BR/>That said, when discussing what BDSM is, it hardly seems wrong to me to talk about what people's experiences actually are, outside of and beyond intentionally sensationalistic media tropes. We're not here to provide an absolutely exhaustive cross-section of any and every BDSM community. We're here talking about myths and misconceptions, and the fact that it's quite common NOT to have experiences like those many people are afraid of.<BR/><BR/>Also, I can't really refute your anecdotal assertion that there are a lot of abusers in the BDSM community such that the proportion is high, as I'd be trading anecdote for anecdote. However, I will point out that in my own experience abusers are rather rare. Which shows that personal speculation from either of us is pretty foolish, in addition to being beside the point.<BR/><BR/>Now, if you have studies or other demographical data, feel free to cite.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.com