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Men...<I>Pain is an integral tool in your re-education. Men like you believe women enjoy pain and violation; before anything else, we must teach you that there is nothing enjoyable about them.<BR/><BR/>well, to be fair, I think the Rhett Butler tortured and re-educated by stern lesbians is a hotter scenario<BR/><BR/>Hotter than what? Than the staircase scene? Yes.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh. I love you all. Such wonderful women. Such beautiful thoughts. This is my kind of feminism!<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>"I suppose having a female Dom/male sub is a-okay in their book."<BR/><BR/>I don't think it's so much *okay* as some kind of idea that if they squint hard enough at us, we'll go away.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes! Very problematic. Why do they hate you so? They're wrong! Wrong!<BR/><BR/><I>Rhett Butler tortured and re-educated by stern lesbians<BR/><BR/>...<BR/><BR/>I'll be in my bunk.</I><BR/><BR/>I mean, if ever there was a way to entice men to become feminists, it is this scenario....<BR/><BR/><I>I think she thinks she's saying "in utopia there'll be less dominance, I hope" but not realizing she's using the language of dominance herself. (Or assuming it's okay/a necessary evil if feminism as a movement dominates, rather than individual women. But, as my vignette there is supposed to point out, someone's gonna be this guy's re-educator...)</I><BR/><BR/>So true. You can't have feminist domination without female dominants. We need re-education! Help us!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-12568158462919569232008-06-11T09:42:00.000-07:002008-06-11T09:42:00.000-07:00Rhett Butler tortured and re-educated by stern les...<I> Rhett Butler tortured and re-educated by stern lesbians</I><BR/><BR/>...<BR/><BR/>I'll be in my bunk.belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-37862858953550184682008-06-10T15:07:00.000-07:002008-06-10T15:07:00.000-07:00"That seemed to imply that you were either equatin..."That seemed to imply that you were either equating patriarchy with men, or that you regarded the people saying patriarchy irreparably damages people's (not just women's, IMO, everyone's) sexuality as equating patriarchy with men."<BR/><BR/>Okay. I don't equate patriarchy with men, but I think a framework that assumes such things as "women's sexuality" and "men's sexuality" and assumes harm to the first without* assuming harm to the second does.<BR/><BR/>There's this thing called "women's sexuality," and this way that it gets broken by this force that isn't "women" and is inimical to "women's" interests.<BR/><BR/>Which could boil down to meaning "women are at risk for rape," but I don't think that "women's sexuality is broken" has quite the same connotation.<BR/><BR/>Which -- well, I suppose I could appeal to the discussions of "kyriarchy" floating around the 'Net nowadays, but there's something about those that puts me off a little. I'm not sure exactly what it is. I think maybe it's that I don't quite think we've hit it if we just say humans' tendency to make hierarchies is the problem -- I think it's got to do with which hierarchies we make and how, and I can't remember right now if the kyriarchy discussions really handle that well.<BR/><BR/>*shrug*<BR/><BR/>At any rate, as someone with PTSD, I think we need better ways of talking about damage than "broken" or "scarred." <BR/><BR/>It's not so much those words -- they may well apply -- as that I think when we use them we've got to be careful about what they mean in a way I really don't think Bartky was when she says it.<BR/><BR/>It's one of the many reasons the "broken" framework just doesn't work for me.<BR/><BR/>*(or agrees that men's sexuality may be harmed, but claims that this harm is relatively irrelevant because men have the power.)Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-70705081810979047742008-06-10T04:35:00.000-07:002008-06-10T04:35:00.000-07:00"And it's also really disheartening: Men have so m..."And it's also really disheartening: Men have so much power that the bad things they do don't just hurt women, but *break* them. Snap them in half like twigs. Smash them to pieces like china.<BR/><BR/>And they don't just break *some* women who are particularly sensitive to it or particularly ill-treated on this sort of view, it seems to me: they break "women's sexuality," the thing, as a whole, as it exists. Whether you're straight or bi or gay. Whether you're strong or weak. Whether you hate sex or love it; you're infected."<BR/><BR/>That seemed to imply that you were either equating patriarchy with men, or that you regarded the people saying patriarchy irreparably damages people's (not just women's, IMO, everyone's) sexuality as equating patriarchy with men. Which I, at least, don't (being technically one myself, it would be... somewhat untenable for me if i did...)<BR/><BR/>Dw3t-Hthr: As an ex-Christian, i'm fully willing to admit that there are bits of Christian ideology floating around in my mind, either subconsciously influencing the terms in which i think and/or being consciously "re-purposed" into less-Christian contexts. However, i really don't think this is one of them - the stuff about Eden and original sin, in my understanding of it, implied that the "fall" of the first humans made all that nasty shit forever <I>inherent in human nature</I>.<BR/><BR/>Whereas, i'm trying to say that having a "broken" or "damaged" sexuality is <I>not</I> inherent in human nature, but in this society. Again i'll reference Maria Mies, who utterly demolishes the cultural feminist argument that "men are rapists simply because they're men and it's in their DNA" and asserts that patriarchy is <I>not</I> inevitably part of human nature, but has specific historical and ideological origins. If i thought we were incapable of being freed <I>by nature</I>, then i don't think there'd be anything worth me fighting (or writing) for.<BR/><BR/>Also... i think lalouve already said this, and it's pretty much what i said in the post i referenced in my first reply, but, for me, being "broken" doesn't mean that we can't still grow into better, freer beings - in fact, it's quite possible to become someone greater than you would have been if never "broken" (i think this is true of many, many disabled people). Anyway, it makes me kind of queasy to even use words like "greater" in relation to people, but i hope you know what i mean.<BR/><BR/>The damage may well be irrepairable, but only in the sense that you'll never get back what the person "would have been" without it. You could still get something equally good or better...stevethehydrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18334234855643025449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-83274154244907885472008-06-08T21:57:00.000-07:002008-06-08T21:57:00.000-07:00THANK YOU KIYATHANK YOU KIYATrinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-64516873792377502242008-06-08T21:56:00.000-07:002008-06-08T21:56:00.000-07:00Whenever I hear the "we are broken because of this...Whenever I hear the "we are broken because of this system" I'm inexorably reminded of some of the least appealing bits of Christian logic involving the Expulsion from Eden.<BR/><BR/>I don't fancy going there.Dw3t-Hthrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584245136407694660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-79118442363983688732008-06-08T18:15:00.000-07:002008-06-08T18:15:00.000-07:00also... lalouve kind of already said this, but i t...also... lalouve kind of already said this, but i think that, in a sense, everything alive is in some way or other "broken", and i think there's a lot of value in embracing brokenness. in fact, i think that's arguably kind of central to disability politics...<BR/><BR/>but i think we are a lot *more* broken, and in much nastier ways, under a system like the one we live in than we *could* be, in a safer, saner, more consensual world.<BR/><BR/>(yeah, i have my issues with both the words "safe" and "sane"... but using them here as i believe was their original intent...)<BR/><BR/>it's disentangling the "brokenness" that comes simply from the imperfection inherent in humanity from the "brokenness" that comes from the daily trauma of living in a system that fucks us over in every physical and mental dimension, that's the hard bit...<BR/><BR/>(in fact, i think that distinction kind of approximates to the impairment/disability distinction...)<BR/><BR/>i actually think i need to write a whole post about this...stevethehydrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18334234855643025449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-85070975929630941682008-06-08T18:11:00.000-07:002008-06-08T18:11:00.000-07:00Shiva,Can you point me to exactly where I said "pa...Shiva,<BR/><BR/>Can you point me to exactly where I said "patriarchy = men"? I've been known to sometimes use words in slippery ways, but I doubt I would ever quite do that.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-91458658134292378352008-06-08T18:09:00.000-07:002008-06-08T18:09:00.000-07:00Lalouve says what i meant to say, only better :)Al...Lalouve says what i meant to say, only better :)<BR/><BR/>Also, Patriarchy != men. Patriarchy = the misogynistic, authoritarian, exploitation-based, sex-negative (etc) system we live in... which might as well be called capitalism, or statism, or whatever, but patriarchy is its sex/gender aspect, and/or the whole thing when viewed primarily thru a lens of sex/gender... if that makes sense. That's how i try to see it, anyway. Your definitions may vary.<BR/><BR/>And, <I>seriously</I>, read that Maria Mies book, for a fucking brilliant explanation of how patriarchy is intimately and inextricably tied up with capitalism and environmental exploitation. (Just try to ignore the, admittedly few if jarring, really, really stupid and/or misinformed things she says about porn and computers... but, y'know, it <I>was</I> 1986...)stevethehydrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18334234855643025449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-28071295320528816362008-06-06T03:59:00.000-07:002008-06-06T03:59:00.000-07:00I think what I'm trying to say can be summed up as...I think what I'm trying to say can be summed up as 'when society damages our sexuality, screw society. Let's take the damage and make it dance.'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-61749495795964322312008-06-06T03:57:00.000-07:002008-06-06T03:57:00.000-07:00Westerners all live in a sex-negative society - ev...Westerners all live in a sex-negative society - even Sweden, which is rather laid back, has a ideal of, as someone put it, 'cuddly monogamous sex in the bedroom.' And actually, I wouldn't put all the blame on men at all. Much of the shaming and repressing is done by women reproducing their own oppression. We can be tools of the patriarchy, too.<BR/><BR/>To me, this is important: "whether we are sadists because we have been harmed <I>or we have been harmed because we're sadists</I>": I don't think I like what I like because I'm broken at all (mostly due to that liking being so early that I don't see how), but I do know that I live in a society that does not respect my sexuality. Not having one's sexuality respected can certainly be damaging to one's self-esteem, and make one hesitant to practice it. <BR/><BR/>I think sadomasochism can be anything from something really wrong with you, to working through issues, to joyful acceptance of power as sexy, to defiance of how your gender role and your sexuality is constructed by society, and probably lots of other things that have never occurred to me. Most of all, I don't think it's possible to say that it's the same thing for everybody orfor one person allt he time. If your pratice of bdsm makes you unhappy or incapable of coping with life, or harms others, then clearly you shouldn't be doing it, no matter who thinks it's a good idea. If it makes you happy and doesn't involve the harming of others, you should clearly be doing it.<BR/><BR/>I think one can snatch enjoyment out of the jaws of a sex-negative society. I think bdsm can be part of that. I also think that it doesn't actually matter if I'm doing it as a way to deal with conflicts about my sexuality. The example here, I suppose, is the rape fantasy as a way to avoid responsibility for one's pleasure. Being able to accept that one is worthy of pleasure is undoubtedly a good thing, but if one can't, the rape fantasy strikes me as a nice workaround, a sign of health, not as a sign of damage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-5249625941220782872008-06-05T16:42:00.000-07:002008-06-05T16:42:00.000-07:00And that to me is also a really weird focus: it's ...And that to me is also a really weird focus: it's "the women are damaged," rather than "hey look what these attackers, most of whom are men, are doing to people."Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-76053123375895437322008-06-05T16:41:00.000-07:002008-06-05T16:41:00.000-07:00Okay, To me, saying someone has a broken sexuality...Okay, To me, saying someone has a broken sexuality is talking like supporters of reparative therapy, or something. "She wants what she wants and likes what she likes because she is broken."<BR/><BR/>And it's also really disheartening: Men have so much power that the bad things they do don't just hurt women, but *break* them. Snap them in half like twigs. Smash them to pieces like china.<BR/><BR/>And they don't just break *some* women who are particularly sensitive to it or particularly ill-treated on this sort of view, it seems to me: they break "women's sexuality," the thing, as a whole, as it exists. Whether you're straight or bi or gay. Whether you're strong or weak. Whether you hate sex or love it; you're infected.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-9864081635422256102008-06-05T16:18:00.000-07:002008-06-05T16:18:00.000-07:00I think that 'broken' for me has much more plant t...I think that 'broken' for me has much more plant than china connotations - it is not irretrievable, but something which can heal, and might well grow into a new and interesting, and even better, shape because of it. <BR/><BR/>As far as how we're broken is concerned: almost every woman I've ever met has had a bad sexual experience (and I don't mean a lay that sucked, I mean a scary bad experience). We have been raped or sexually assaulted, at worst, and if not, we have been made to feel ashamed, doubtful, embarrassed, weird, about our sexuality. We carry these experiences with us, and some of us grow in new and innovative ways while some of us cannot, for many reasons, manage that and are stunted instead. <BR/><BR/>Whether we are sadists because we have been harmed or we have been harmed because we're sadists (to use our example), we are oppressed by a society that feels free to judge female sexuality. I find that embracing the kink is a good way of growing beyond the harm that is done to us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-17067085524149940652008-06-05T16:03:00.000-07:002008-06-05T16:03:00.000-07:00"DAMN that snippet was hot."Thanks, Joscelin... I ..."DAMN that snippet was hot."<BR/><BR/>Thanks, Joscelin... I was wondering if anyone liked it! ;)Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-6100713492845095912008-06-05T09:45:00.000-07:002008-06-05T09:45:00.000-07:00Lalouve,My only question would be what it means fo...Lalouve,<BR/><BR/>My only question would be what it means for a sexuality to be "broken." I feel like I can understand this if it's being discussed on an individual scale, e.g.<BR/><BR/>* "My sexuality is broken because my antidepressants lowered my libido when I didn't want this to occur."<BR/>* "My sexuality is broken because I just got out of an abusive relationship and I do not feel comfortable with sexual intimacy."<BR/><BR/>etc.<BR/><BR/>It's much more difficult for me to understand what "WE have a broken sexuality" would mean. Who are "we"? What is the nature of the damage? What would a non-"broken" sexuality look like?<BR/><BR/>I understand that if one buys the radical worldview, one gets at least slightly more cogent answers to those questions than if one does not.<BR/><BR/>What I don't understand is why such a worldview can be convincing. Even presuming our world is "broken" in something like that way, we *still* find deeply individualized sexualities, including kinks and fetishes, INCLUDING among women.<BR/><BR/>Given a world with such difference, it seems to me impossible to isolate "brokenness."<BR/><BR/>What I do think we can isolate are ways in which people are commonly pressured. I suppose for some value of the term, that can mean "broken."<BR/><BR/>But that's not what "broken" means to me. "Broken" means irreparable damage has been done to someone's erotic self. And I'm really leery of saying that in a generalized way. Even saying specifically of someone "Shana has a broken sexuality" seems to me the sort of thing I could only say if I know Shana well personally and therefore am privy to her sexuality-related distress.<BR/><BR/>Even then I don't know whether I get to call her "broken."Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-46946501455209199722008-06-05T03:18:00.000-07:002008-06-05T03:18:00.000-07:00I'd be willing to concede that our sexuality is br...I'd be willing to concede that our sexuality is broken by our living in a patriacrhy (and I have no problem with that term). However, I would say that taking the structures that oppress us and turning them into sexual pleasure is a deeply radical act, and one which is a valid protest against those very structures - as in 'I'm now going to take your ideas of how men and women work and fuck with them (literally).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-760704342202547222.post-84440717742206948022008-06-02T12:45:00.000-07:002008-06-02T12:45:00.000-07:00"er... isn't EVERYONE, under patriarchy?"Honestly ..."er... isn't EVERYONE, under patriarchy?"<BR/><BR/>Honestly I'm no longer a fan of "omg patriarchee maked us brokend, if we wuz freez we'd aaaaaaaaaallll be diffrunt!"<BR/><BR/>I don't think we have any way of knowing that, honestly. And I'm inclined to think the bad things about humans that lead to oppressive hierarchy are, unfortunately, natural. I strongly suspect that oppression will always be with us in some form or another (though this does NOT mean I believe we ought not fight it), so trying to puzzle out what "a healthy human" looks like while presupposing that humans will only be healthy when there is no oppression strikes me as a useless endeavor entirely.<BR/><BR/>"As for state power... abolishing state power, yes. "Seizing" it, for any reason other than to abolish it, and especially for "re-educating" anyone (shades of Judge Rotenberg there)... no."<BR/><BR/>And this is also where I deviate from some. I'm not sure we can ever abolish state power. I just think that it's really naive to say "Rhett Butler being hot is just a symptom of a hierarchical society. Wouldn't it be more fun to use state power (hierarchy) to re-educate (aggressively use the state's force upon) him?" I mean, does she not know what she said there?!Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.com