Saturday 20 March 2010

Thinky comments....

Just got an interesting comment on a rather old post, so I thought I'd pull it out:
I think people who ask questions like that are taking an unwarranted shortcut--something like, "Well, we know patriarchy affects people" (true) "and we know patriarchy is based on a power dynamic" (also true) "and we know BDSM is based on a power dynamic" (true) "so patriarchy must be involved in BDSM somewhere" (wait, stop, back up a bit).

They're leaving out the step of showing that the power dynamic in BDSM bears any significant similarity or common traits to the one in patriarchy. (Possibly they assume that, as an overarching model embedded in our culture, patriarchy must have gotten its meathooks into most power dynamics that exist, but they have to prove that first, and define exactly what the "meathooks" are and how they got attached, etc.).

I have no problem believing that patriarchal assumptions have affected my thoughts about kinky things in some ways...but I seriously doubt it was the sole driving force responsible for their existence.

I also think patriarchy is everywhere, but I'd have to see solid scientific studies before I just assume it's any more "involved" with BDSM than it is in (say) cooking or photography or raising miniature horses.
I agree with that, and I also wonder whether it might be useful to bring up something this comment makes me think of. Not sure how useful it is or isn't but...

I'm reminded of reading books like Coming to Power years ago, and noticing several of the folks who contributed to that (who identified as both kinky and feminist) saying stuff like "I think everything in life is shot through with power dynamics. Life itself is a constant interplay of power: of control, of authority, of obedience, of surrender. When I make that part of my life, whether I'm 'playing' with it or doing something else, I'm acknowledging and studying and perhaps even affecting how those many dynamics of power play out."

It makes me think. At the time, I figured that the kinky folk expressing this view (and I'd say in some ways I too am one; I think power relations underlie a whole lot of human interaction at a pretty basic level) saw power as just a part of life, where anti-kink folk saw power dynamics as something sick and twisted overlaid forcibly on some more innocent state of nature.

Now I wonder if that's true. Maybe they agree that power is a part of everything, a part of cooking and dancing and talking and sex, but it's just that they think it's poison, stuffed into everything so we don't know what's natural any more and what isn't. Kind of the way there are preservatives in food.

And that... well, to go back to the commenter's comment, I'm inclined to think patriarchy is that way, stuffed bits at a time into a lot of things we do. And I don't think that's healthy. (But neither do I think aggressive methods to try and purge it work. I don't think corn in everything I eat is good, but I think it would make me crazy to try and eat nothing with corn syrup in it.)

But I'm not sure power is. I'm pretty sure interplays of power just are what they are. Yes, some of them are pernicious, and yes, all of them probably carry some risk. But I tend to think they come with interacting. I'd say "in the way dying comes with living," except that dying is unknown and often painful and scary and usually seen as negative, and I mean something more neutral than that. I mean if you live, they're there.

I can't imagine they wouldn't be in the post-patriarchy, or even in the post-kyriarchy of any kind.

104 comments:

Anonymous said...

I come at this not only as a (feminist, queer, monogamously bonded) sub but also as someone who reads a lot of the scientific literature on animal behavior, specifically the behavior of social animals. The idea that power is in itself toxic is so scientifically stupid that, as they say, "it's not even wrong." All social animals have to deal with social conflict, and in an environment where resources are limited (that is to say, in any environment), some animals will for whatever reason (physical strength, skill at forming social alliances, sneakiness) have more ability than others to control resources. That's power in a nutshell.

How one deals with the consequences of the existence of power, and of differentials in power -- that's ethics. Patriarchy (Jesus, I hate that word -- it just reeks of Andrea Dworkin) is, you could say, an unethical way of addressing issues of power.

The question of naturalness is also absurd from a scientific point of view. Pretty much all animals have some degree of behavioral flexibility, and the social species tend to be the most behaviorally flexible of all. By definition, if a behavior is in the species repertoire, it's "natural." There is no discussion to be had about that.

We can ask scientific questions about it, of course, such as "How did this behavior get into the evolved repertoire?" But the point is that such questions can be, should be, are asked about any behavior.(We are unlikely to come up with a definitive answer, however, because many or most of our hypotheses won't be testable.)

We can also ask nonscientific questions about behavior, such as "Is this self-destructive?" "Is this ethically okay?" "Does this feel good?" but if the starting point is that science-y attitude that everything is up for questioning, then, once more, we wind up asking those same questions about behavior most people presume to be "normal."

This probably isn't different from what you were saying about the assumptions behind questions like "Why are some people kinky?" I'm just coming at it from my science head, that I want to ask all these questions, but I want to ask them of everything.

I do find kink (and the lack thereof) fascinating as subjects of neurological inquiry. Anecdotally, for instance, I've heard that a lot of people with pain kinks like very spicy food. What an interesting fMRI study that would be -- to learn whether people without pain kinks respond differently to habanero pepper than people with pain kinks do! And whether the response to hot pepper resembles the response to a cane stroke.

You could see it being quite normalizing, oddly enough, since nobody argues that a taste for hot pepper is in any way "abnormal." Heh.

antiprincess said...

I remember Coming to Power. rocked my world.

Anonymous said...

Glad to see this blog still getting some activity.

Kinky people will vary widely. Some are on the Libertarian/Anarchist side; others are Goreans; still others are Fem-Domme. Generally the "Anti-Patriarchists" tend to cast the latter as some sort of role-adoption where women become men. Ah, the wonderful ability for ideology to morph people and things at will and convenience. Come to think of it, there are probably aficionados of het couples as either unitized tops or bottoms.

The thing is that with so many things being identified as "Patriarchal" that, if true, it's hard to think of anything - even RadFem as escaping the gravitational pull and reaching escape velocity.

It's more a chaotic system, where all values might come into play. Given the ethos of consent, it's hard to see anyone having total power when the other can simply safe-word out. Then again, if "freedom" is a "patriarchal" concept set in opposition to RadFem "interdependence", anything can be cast as anything at rhetorical convenience - one id forced into a paradigm of power, even if one is removing oneself from power.

My perspective is simply let your kinks be that which works for you and don't tie yourself in knots trying for the One True Path to seuality.

Anonymous said...

Okay, so for arguments sake let's say that BDSM is based on some power imbalance that is entirely separate to the whole issue of patriarchy. It doesn't change anything. It still seems that BDSM should be condemned because it has a inherent power imbalance.

Why do we condemn the patriarchy if not for the fact that it is a power imbalance? What theoretical footing can feminism have if it is not the rejection of power imbalances?

There is perhaps an out for BDSM in that it is a consensual power imbalance, but so are many other power imbalances that feminists condemn, a 1950s style marriage for example.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across confrontationally, I do not mean to be so. I just feel that there seems to be a fundamental tension between the theoretical framework of feminism and 'kinkyism' that is unresolved.

Ivy and Haley said...

Funny I found this blog when I am going to leave in a half an hour for a dominatrix interview!

While I agree that Patriarchy CAN play a role in BDSM, it certainly isn't necessary.

Come visit me.
http://ivyandhaley.blogspot.com

Ivy

Becky said...

Sorry if double posted!
RJS-
The difference between the patriarchy that needs to be changed and BDSM is one is an external power structure imposed on individuals by societal forces and one is an internal chosen relational style between individuals.
If one of the stated goals if feminism is allowing people to choose the relational styles they most enjoy, then if both parties enjoy it it's ok.
Plenty of people take the idea of choice to mean "as long as it looks like something I would do you can choose it." Which can make it hard for them to see that different choices are valid, even if they look like a return to "the bad old days"
After all, aren't stay-at-home Mom's voluntarily recreating that 50's household? But some of them do it with hipster pride, and some of them do it with evangelical fervor.
There are people who use BDSM to replay bad scenarios from their lives, there are some who are just crazy people. But that's true of any community.
And why does anyone's sex and love life have to conform to the theoretical framework of feminism?

Trinity said...

RJS,

It's been a long time since you commented, so I don't know if you're even here, but:

I don't think feminism is about rejecting power imbalances. I think it is about eradicating ("rejecting" sounds so ivory-tower) unjust ones.

Consensually accepting someone else's authority is not something I see as unjust, so therefore even if I didn't like kink, poking my nose into it would make no sense.

It seems to me that people who share your views really make light of the serious damage that unjust power dynamics do by putting consensual fun on the same footing.

Do you really, really, honestly feel that sexism and racism and ableism and the like are simply distasteful, like you find some forms of sex to be?

I'd say not, but that's what you're claiming when you say things like you did.

Trinity said...

actually, I must amend the "eradicating" -- that is of course the goal, but I don't think it's something we can succeed at. Human evil is a powerful enemy.

Anonymous said...

to rjs

I'm not sure why you think that all "1950s style marriages" (by which I assume you mean a "traditional" marriage in which a woman stays in her husband's home and raises children) are 100% consensual. Some absolutely are, but others are not as consensual as they may appear at first blush. Some women end up in these marriages because it's the only choice available to them, or they face being ostracized by family and friends if they choose differently. I don't see "this is my only choice, so I'll do it" as being the same as "I fully want and consent to this". So I don't think that's a solid analogy to make when discussing BDSM.

Also, agreeing with the above-- a form of sex that you don't personally enjoy/agree with isn't even in the same league as injustice and oppression of people on a society-wide scale.

Cereus Sphinx said...

I think one of the big problems here is that people mix up two different kinds of power.

There's what I call "Ceremonial Power" - calling someone "sir" "master" "Ma'am" even "King" and choosing to obey their orders. Giving them symbols of office etc...

"Real Power" comes from having enough resources and bodily freedom to do what you desire to do (as long as it doesn't interfere with others).

So with my boyfriend - if I need to use his house (to get away from family mostly) it's open to me. We both buy groceries whenever we get money - we don't hold a running tab - no one "owes" anybody anything. We're EQUALS. If he held either of these things over me as a way of extorting anything from me that would be a *real* abuse of power.

He's also my "Sworn Lord". Different issue.

I think this also holds back discussions of socialism. Yes - there might need to be managers and secretaries, but secretaries should have enough resources to have reliable shelter and food, and to be able to go after their goals.

Levanah said...

"Why do we condemn the patriarchy if not for the fact that it is a power imbalance? What theoretical footing can feminism have if it is not the rejection of power imbalances?"

A frame of reference I have found useful is the distinction between a "rational and temporary" imbalance of power and an "irrational and permanent" one. For example, as the parent of a child, I held a "rational and temporary" imbalance of power vis-a-vis my daughter which derived from my greater understanding and mastery of many aspects of the environment and my responsibility for getting her safely to the point where her knowledge and mastery allowed her to function independently. It was an imbalance intended to come to an end, a goal for which I bore - in my very power - a great deal of responsibility for achieving. My daughter is now in her late 20s, and we both work hard to weed out the last remnants of that old, once-rational-but-now-outdated imbalance in order to achieve the *balance* of power that is more appropriate to two adults in relationship.

The context in which I learned this way of distinguishing two types of power was that of the therapist-client relationship. As a radical feminist practicing psychotherapy, one of my main concerns was to acknowledge and play my part as one whose experience and expertise placed me in the position of having greater power in a way that guaranteed its "rational and temporary" nature. Everything I did was ultimately in the service of shifting that power balance so that ultimately my client and I would be in a relationship in which our power was equal.
++++++++++++
A second concept which has served me well has been the distinction between "power-over" and "power-as-personal-potency." Patriarch only has one concept of power; it is synonymous with "domination," or "power-over." Feminism (re-)introduces another form of power, that of "potency," which does not require the subservience of another in order to exist. When the personal power/potency of all parties is a 'given,' then an exploration of power-as-domination, it seems to me, can have an entirely new reality.

Anonymous said...

hi all

http://www.tor.com/community/users/flagathalear1982
http://www.tor.com/community/users/solfelatools1984
http://www.tor.com/community/users/dustgevacons1970
http://www.tor.com/community/users/bircirebu1986
http://www.tor.com/community/users/proffinmimi1974

Anonymous said...

Today I'm wondering if that's real. Perhaps that they recognize of which power is often a component of Diablo 3 goldevery thing, a part of preparing along with dancing and discussing in addition to sex, but it's simply that they believe it is poison, packed into anything and then we are not aware of precisely what is organic any more as well as what exactly just isn't. Kind of the best Diablo 3 itemsway there are synthetic ingredients in food items.

wow gold said...

nice blog

diablo 3 gold said...

Glad to see this blog still getting some activity.This is my words.

Anonymous said...

spyder ski jackets spyder ski jackets spyder jackets [url=http://www.spyder--jackets.com/]spyder jackets[/url] www.spyder--jackets.com

ugg boots sale ugg boots sale ugg boots traffic [url=http://www.ugg--bootssale.com/]genuine ugg boots[/url] www.ugg--bootssale.com

replica gucci bags replica gucci bags replica gucci bags [url=http://www.gucci--bags.com/]Gucci bags[/url] www.gucci--bags.com

karen millen release karen millen dresses karen millen discharge [url=http://www.karen--millen-outlet.com/]karen millen outlet[/url] www.karen--millen-outlet.com

burberry market sale sale burberry outlet sale [url=http://www.burberry--outlet-sale.com/]sale[/url] www.burberry--outlet-sale.com

Anonymous said...

ugg boots outlet NetWeiple
ugg boots uk NetWeiple
ugg boots uk NetWeiple
http://uggbootsinukstore.webeden.co.uk

Anonymous said...

Heath Miller Womens Jersey
Jonathan Dwyer Womens Jersey
Jonathan Dwyer Youth Jersey
drydayoutraro

Anonymous said...

Troy Polamalu Womens Jersey
Jonathan Dwyer Womens Jersey
Russell Wilson Grey Jersey
drydayoutraro

Anonymous said...

Biansioni James Jones Youth Jersey Israel Idonije Womens Jersey Major Wright Womens Jersey

Anonymous said...

Biansioni Mike Wallace Youth Jersey www.officialnikepackersjersey.com Clay Matthews Womens Jersey

Anonymous said...

Isaac Redman Womens Jersey
Antrel Rolle Pink Jersey
Hakeem Nicks Blue Jersey
drydayoutraro

Anonymous said...

In the Winter months, there are a wide variety of persons wearing boots on the streets. A pair of UGG snow boots with spherical toe is so adorable among the boots collection, they can usually steal everyones eye. They are often created in basically but not extravagant kinds, both of those heat and comfortable, so they are the typical for all the shoppers. For this reason, the smooth [url=http://www.uggforukcheapsale.co.uk]cheap ugg[/url] snow UGG boots has turn into the initial preference for the vogue folks to go out in the winter. Now enable us know about how the stars dress in hot UGG boots with superb trend.


Gwen Stefani like the UGG boots, her UGG boots are very trendy in type, they are free of charge, effortless and generous total design and style, the brown color with fur and suede detail overall body is [url=http://www.uggbootsforukcheaper.co.uk]ugg boots sale[/url] harmonious, she usually pair them with a prolonged knit sweater more than hip which seem relaxed and secure, thereby demonstrate an substitute design of Eskimo hair boots style. Ashley Tisdale likes the Military green boots. Military green is the exclusive colour which is more suited for the of winter season boots, the super comfortable tassel exhibits a elegant and snug feeling can very easily make your feet feel comfy at just about every step, it is the initial gown option for leisure purchasing in the wintertime. The informal pair of jeans obviously illustrates your unrestrained identity, it is a actual choice model.
Kate Moss is the vogue queen who is admired by most of the manner men and women, het style of pairing is always at the forefront of manner. The admirers who spend adequate awareness to Kate Moss will get a few guidelines: She like to pair grizzlies boots with ball facts with apparel in grey colour, they appear pretty lovely. The black UGG boots is the [url=http://www.uggforukcheapsale.co.uk]cheap ugg[/url] most deserving UGG selection. The timeless basic black UGG types are the most worthy selection of styles, individuals can also pair them with black clothes, as a result will demonstrate a fascinating taste.
Ashley Tisdale seems to be formidable and capable with the bike jacket coat, the dark grey winter season boots can have a great searching with the stovepipe trousers, it looks that it is the elementary rule to pair in the similar colour in this winter months. It will appear substantially even more restrained and practical to add a bag in the same colour. The with fold tube worn by Amanda Seyfried are incredibly well known in this calendar year, these boots in comfy and normal design will provide the sensation of liberty for the women who are in pursuit of self-launch.

Anonymous said...

jgedzoowo
http://www.jyoseiboots.com/ UGGムートンブーツ
[url=http://www.jyoseiboots.com/]ugg ショートブーツ[/url]
UGG アウトレット

Anonymous said...

The edits added violence against villains, but removed villains from the heroes (an evil mother might become a step-mother). [url=http://www.michaelkorsehandbags.com]michael kors sale[/url]
[url=http://www.uggbootonlinesale.co.uk]ugg outlet online[/url] bokzmlb tsdnult [url=http://www.michaelkorshangbagsshop.com]michael kors bag[/url] rqytjay [url=http://www.uggssnowbootssale.com]uggs sale[/url] yhxfspe
vjkjlkx [url=http://www.beatsbydresoutletsa.com]cheap dre beats[/url]

itemrock said...

The simple yet sophisticated sheepskin motif makes these boot WOW Gold styles versatile to be the "in" things and their appeal has pasted the test of time.|That's because there is no support in the arch area, WOW Gear according to Edward Chairman, a Philadelphia podiatrist. A note about the sheepskin sock - this allows for not only luxurious comfort, but also serves to wick moisture away GW2 Gold from the feet to keep them dry and warm all winter long.}

Anonymous said...

Should you be thinking of buying a winter months jacket with serious [url=http://www.northfacefleecejackets.com/shop-womens-north-face-denali-fleece-jackets-c-200_204.html]north face fleece clearance[/url] , the North Deal with Women's Prism Ice Parka is your solution. For casual winter explorers, this jacket might even be too warm and technical. Luckily for them, even so, people who locate themselves in significantly less serious wintertime problems can [url=http://www.northfacefleecejackets.com/charcoal-grey-north-face-denali-fleece-jackets-for-men-clearance-p-637.html]north face denali fleece sale[/url] the liner and use the inner layer, staying warm and shopping just as good.

Anonymous said...

jGpw ghd hair straighteners
iSkk ugg boots uk
hTiq michael kors outlet
3dQug GHD
7iBre burberry purses
1kXew ugg australia
2gYan ghd
9iHnc discount louis vuitton
7jEyd michael kors outlet
6bVyn coach outlet
3rDou ugg sale
6iIuy cheap nfl jerseys
7vGtr michael kors outlet
7oKta GHD Pas Cher
8wHeo ugg boots

Anonymous said...

ZpxNru http://sinsakuchanel.com/ YsbDdl [url=http://sinsakuchanel.com/]シャネル バッグ 新作 2012[/url] GhaWgy http://ninnkicoach.com/ EhpPbp [url=http://ninnkicoach.com/]コーチ キーケース 新作[/url] VufCxw http://diorautoretto.com/ VmtVhm [url=http://diorautoretto.com/]クリスチャンディオール グロス[/url] HixUpj http://nihongucci.com/ KldRjb [url=http://nihongucci.com/]グッチ アウトレット 公式[/url] SmeLrq http://longchampnihon.com/ DyqVbs [url=http://longchampnihon.com/]ロンシャン プリアージュ l[/url] KoqTiw http://sinsakuvuitton.com/ JyoUyd [url=http://sinsakuvuitton.com/]ヴィトン 財布 ダミエ[/url] BzxKmw http://gekiyasuprada.com/ OnbBlz [url=http://gekiyasuprada.com/]プラダ アウトレット フィレンツェ[/url] GbrOha http://uggsinsaku.com/ LngScn [url=http://uggsinsaku.com/]UGG ブーツ キッズ[/url]

Anonymous said...

Payday loans online http://www.legitpaydayloansonline1.com/ Fundpopog http://legitpaydayloansonline1.com/ Stype [url=http://www.legitpaydayloansonline2.com/]Instant Payday Loans Online[/url] Legit Payday Loans Online The best news of these loans is that most you to only is documentation which saves a lot of hassle and time!!

Anonymous said...

at once it [url=http://www.ddtshanghaiescort.com/shanghai-escort.html]shanghai massage[/url] is different a few years after this period of in good time always beans futuresnot natural fluctuations consequential

Anonymous said...

xanax online xanax withdrawal symptoms sweating - xanax effects when snorted

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online is tramadol for dogs a narcotic - where to buy tramadol for dogs

Anonymous said...

ghd hair straightener zdoexhcb ghd australia vobhluhd ghd hair straighteners eqzcwvnj

Anonymous said...

xanax online xanax overdose icd-9 - zyprexa xanax side effects

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol hcl no prescription - tramadol stada 100mg nebenwirkungen

Anonymous said...

beats by dre lbmrfadl casque beats by dre pas cher elqopjas casque beats by dre agqgpzui casque docteur dre pusselsx casque monster beats pas cher gdnvflwl casque monster beats omkiefjk ecouteur beats yjeyande monster beats pas cher gtmfipgq monster beats qtrwzbce

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online buy cheap tramadol online usa - tramadol online no prescription cod

Anonymous said...

buy carisoprodol vicodin online no prescription overnight - carisoprodol 350 mg drug interactions

Anonymous said...

xanax online xanax drug for sleep - xanax dose get high

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online buy tramadol overnight saturday delivery - buy tramadol online in europe

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol 20mg - tramadol 50 mg hcl narcotic

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol reviews - tramadol 100 mg high dose

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol withdrawal exercise - tramadol zydus 50 mg

Anonymous said...

alprazolam long does 1mg xanax stay system - xanax overdose quantity

Anonymous said...

tramadol online 250mg tramadol high - tramadol overnight cod delivery

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol no prescription buy tramadol online overnight mastercard - buy tramadol online cheap

Anonymous said...

cheap generic xanax 0.25 mg xanax high dose - buy xanax no prescription

Anonymous said...

generic xanax xanax drug test long does stay your system - 1mg of xanax erowid

Anonymous said...

xanax no prescription generic xanax bars - many pills xanax overdose

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol 50 mg norge - tramadol hcl 200mg side effects

Anonymous said...

generic xanax 2mg klonopin 2mg xanax - safe to order xanax online

Anonymous said...

buy carisoprodol no prescription carisoprodol 350 mg with alcohol - carisoprodol soma scheduled drug

Anonymous said...

order tramadol online is ordering tramadol online illegal - can tramadol hcl 50 mg be cut in half

Anonymous said...

carisoprodol without prescription ketamine carisoprodol - buy carisoprodol online no prescription

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online legal buy tramadol online usa - tramadol 50 mg can you get high

Anonymous said...

buy cialis online reputable online pharmacy for cialis - cialis price malaysia

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol to buy online - uss cheap tramadol

Anonymous said...

cialis online reviews for generic cialis - can you buy cialis in thailand

Anonymous said...

xanax online what is xanax drug for - xanax bars urban dictionary

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online buy 300 mg tramadol - buy tramadol online with american express

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online can you buy tramadol over counter usa - next day tramadol review

Anonymous said...

cialis online cialis price comparison us - cialis faq

Anonymous said...

xanax online xanax treats anxiety - xanax how long does it take to work

Anonymous said...

buy tadalafil cialis online soft - generic cialis in usa

Anonymous said...

buy tadalafil online cialis price at walgreens - cialis+online drugstore

Anonymous said...

xanax online xanax dosage 20 pound dog - xanax 2 mg and alcohol

Anonymous said...

cialis online usa cialis price comparison 20mg - cialis online scams

Anonymous said...

http://landvoicelearning.com/#23561 tramadol dosage grasscity - tramadol 50 mg tablet

Anonymous said...

http://landvoicelearning.com/#63987 can you overdose tramadol hcl - tramadol 50 mg picture

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol no prescription tramadol dosage sizes - co jest tramadol 50mg

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol order tramadol health solutions network - can you buy tramadol in the usa

Anonymous said...

learn how to buy tramdadol tramadol hcl abuse - tramadol for sale no prescription usa

Anonymous said...

http://blog.dawn.com/dblog/buy/#85714 tramadol hcl info - tramadol 50 mg how strong

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol 50mg vs vicodin 5mg - amneal tramadol ingredients

Anonymous said...

http://landvoicelearning.com/#97734 tramadol addiction + 2011 - tramadol while breastfeeding

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol order online tramadol 50g - where to buy tramadol online usa

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol long does tramadol high last - tramadol withdrawal heart palpitations

Anonymous said...

tramadol without prescription tramadol 50 mg buy online - where to order tramadol online

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online without a prescription buy tramadol online 100mg - tramadol hcl 50 mg images

Anonymous said...

learn how to buy tramdadol buy tramadol online 100mg - tramadol hcl 100mg side effects

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol buy tramadol australia - tramadol overnight saturday delivery

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online 5 htp help tramadol withdrawal - que es tramadol 50mg

Anonymous said...

buy ativan ativan side effects blood pressure - ativan for addiction

Anonymous said...

http://reidmoody.com/#54126 ativan overdose what to do - ativan side effects appetite

Anonymous said...

ativan mg quit smoking with ativan - long do ativan withdrawal last

Anonymous said...

http://reidmoody.com/#37982 ativan side effects reviews - buy ativan cheap

Anonymous said...

http://ranchodelastortugas.com/#93851 are xanax pills yellow - xanax effects long term

Anonymous said...

http://ranchodelastortugas.com/#71453 xanax side effects confusion - xanax hangover cure

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online tramadol hcl 50 mg and alcohol - tramadol hcl 37.5

Anonymous said...

http://staam.org/#74560 tramadol ultram er - tramadol 200 mg get high

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol with paypal tramadol for dogs + rimadyl - pet meds tramadol no prescription

Anonymous said...

http://bayshorechryslerjeep.com/#2902 how to order xanax online - xanax bars pictures

Anonymous said...

The fact that you get the hazard to spiel for Liberate without outgo act as Best up-to-the-minute games then you will get Best top Online casinos gambling with your friends. [url=http://www.onlinecasinoburger.co.uk/]online casinos uk[/url] online casinos And so just roughly all those who merely want to gamble via the cyberspace cull the Topper the shuffler is doing the removing. http://www.onlinecasinotaste.co.uk/

Anonymous said...

The types of bets include Net's Welcome incentive of 200 bucks as it has Never been easier to get. [url=http://www.yqilh.co.uk/]online casinos[/url] woohooonlinecasino.co.uk In general you will bill these Online casino Online to undivided tournaments to Day-to-day supernumerary bonuses. http://www.qouar.co.uk/

Anonymous said...

Casino-on-Net ist stolz auf Seine Spielersicherheit sowie heavy regulated sites would constantly Deal customers' base hit as their anteriority. [url=http://www.tasty-onlinecasino.co.uk/]online casino uk[/url] http://www.onlinehomecasino.co.uk/ Online expertise isn't the lightsome up and round from top to Arse ahead landing place on 1 of the 9 bonus games. http://www.onlinecasinoburger.co.uk/

Anonymous said...

buy misoprostol cytotec - buy cytotec in kuwait - buy cheap misoprostol

Anonymous said...

order tramadol online without prescription tramadol buy - cheap tramadol no prescription

Anonymous said...

buy ambien on the street buy ambien sleeping pills online - buy ambien with paypal

Anonymous said...

buy ambien online canada can you buy ambien in canada - order ambien uk

Anonymous said...

buy tramadol online uk reviews or tramadol side effects or tramadol online for dogs or ordering tramadol online legal or buy tramadol england or order tramadol with mastercard or buy tramadol paypal

zoyi330 said...

Howdy! I just would like buy android phones to give a huge thumbs up for the great information you may have here on

Alberta Smith said...

Birds love rice love life-spring water that is needed, not love; hyacinth is that love for no reason, to deep to cut Samsung caseslove.

Unknown said...

good website, as well as expect will by Sony case some means read your own long term articles :) *joking*Hi there! I merely would like to give you a massive thumbs upwards to the fantastic info you may have the following in