Wednesday, 15 October 2008

Guest Post: Renegade Evolution on "Verbal Degradation"

Recently an anonymous commenter left the following remarks to a post here, in whose comments I and other regulars attempted to explain BDSM to a radical feminist visitor. We stressed the "nice" parts of BDSM: the negotiation, the positive feelings it can bring up, the intimacy, etc. Our anonymous visitor felt, apparently, that we've made BDSM sound too nicey-nice:
I'll also say here that some of the posts here strike me as unnecessarily whitewashing this sexuality. I'm not sure- perhaps our sexualities simply differ. But still, the fact is, I kink on heirarchy. Unfairness is hot. And yeah, I kink on humiliation too. All those posts about how we're actually equal, how wearing a collar can mean so many different things, rings hollow to me. I'm here because I adore power exchange dynamics and because being lead around on a leash makes me feel like a dog.
I added my own comments, but I want here to post the comments of the inimitable Renegade Evolution. I would just give her guest post access, but the owner of the blog actually isn't me, so for all I post here, I'm not the one who can do that. So here are Ren's own words, unedited, as she sent them to me:

Filthography- One Woman's take on the allure of verbal degradation & humiliation.


Right then. I preface this with saying I am no expert on BDSM. No way in hell could I talk about topping or being a sub like most of the folk here, no way I am prepared to discuss the proper way to execute suspension bondage or what is better for the task at hand, leather, synthetic, or horse hair. I'm just sort of a generalized perv who digs rough sex and a few other kinks and quirks. Two big among them being verbal degradation and humiliation. That shit I dig, in so much I have sought out a profession that often contains components of my preferred perviness (after all, if you have to work, you might as well like your job). And something that is often asked is…Why?

Well, I can't answer the why for everyone. I can't say with any sense of absolute authority why anyone other than myself would get off on being called names, used sexually, objectified, degraded and humiliated- or get off on doing those things to other people- but I can delve into why I like it, and what I think the allure is. And some of it may ring true for actual BDSM enthusiasts, and some of it may not, but hey, I'll give it a go.

One, I think for all the labels of deviant and fucked up or whatever else, expressions of non-traditional sexual behavior, kink, as it were, are ultimately cerebral, and ultimately human. People, after all, are not all happy shiny wonderful honorable wonder and light. They just aren't. People have dark sides. People have ugly sides. People have aggressive streaks and snide moments and greedy motivations. They have times in which they like to test themselves. They have seedy or sadistic or submissive or cold moments. And people can examine endlessly if they want, look at cultural modifiers and implications and influences all they want, this does not change the fact that people are wired with both admirable and less than admirable quirks and urges, and it does not change the fact that in some way or another, these things will come out. That might be in a controlled way, or an uncontrolled way, it might be exercised, it might explode. But these things are there, and I think denying them is actually pretty bad for ones health, so yeah, giving the dark side some airtime? Not a bad move in my book. Some people do this via art; some do it via writing or music. Some people sick it out into private journals or channel it into contact sports. I rather like letting loose with it in sex. Consenting sexual contact between adults, of course, but yeah…I'm big on good old fashioned hate fucking. In short, I like my sex…ugly. Ugly beautiful, but ugly. I have to be "good, caring, socially acceptable, generally polite human" every day of the week, so when it comes to fucking, I don't want to be that human, I want to be the other part. The animal part, the selfish part, the mean or cruel or dehumanized part, the not human-objectified part. Yeah, I am odd like that…

I know many people engage in verbal degradation or humiliation as part of a role playing exercise, and enjoy it because they know their partner doesn't really mean what they are saying, or the context is reclaimed or specialized, where the words and acts are not truly intended to be ugly, but rather something special and ritualized and actually, a signifier of trust or intimacy or affection between the parties involved…I'm not one of those people. When people, in a sexual context, say ugly things to me, as it were, I want them to mean it. I don't need that shit prettied up or justified. If anything "nice" need be in there, a sense of awe will do. I want what is ugly to be as real there as when I look at a flower and find it pretty. I want it real. Horrible me, I know, engaging in such things, but yeah…I like the power plays and domination and control and all the actual selfish, "using", ID driven crap to be real. Make it in color, do it like you mean it. If some guy is going to grab my hair, calling me a filthy whore, pitch me on my back, and tell me to choke on his fucking cock…it better be believable. And if I'm going to call some dude a worthless meatsack, kick out the back of his knees, and drill him up the ass with a strap on like a piece of stinking meat…I want him to believe I mean what I say…because I do. If someone is going to present me to a group of people, rip off my top and bang me on the coffee table, I don't want it to be a matter of "look at what I have, isn't she wonderful", I want it to be a matter of whomever actually wanting to humiliate me and objectify and use me. I want it to be as real and as dehumanized as consenting people can get. In fact, the only consideration I'm interested in is the consent. I don't want some guy pissing on me because it's part of some elaborate kinkster game…I want him pissing on me because at that moment, what I'm worth is being pissed on. I want it to be real. I want the ugly beautiful. I even go for being the objectified and used party far more often than not, because in the daily have to be a nice human world? Yeah, I'm a bit of a perfectionist and highly complimented control freak.

And while sure, there is some smirking nod at "transgressive"; it's not about that. Not for me anyway. I dig the seedy and brutal and mean. I want the dark side, the sneering, greedy, contempt-filled use and objectification and callous pursuit of pleasure. That, to me, is the allure. That is the attraction. That is what makes it, for me, hot. Because it's not pretty. It's not nice. It's not loving or contextualized or reclaimed or any of that. It's selfish, crass, and not subject to after-care. It's ugly and visceral and…human. That's the allure, the turn on, the thrill, what makes me wet. Because we all have dark sides. And this is where and how I chose to exercise mine. And words? Words do matter, almost as much as actions. I want them to talk to me like they hate me, and fuck me the same way.

We all have our quirks.

297 comments:

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Trinity said...

Ren,

As we've spoken about before on your blog, my blog, and other places, I have dark fantasies too. The thing I found odd about Anon's comment was that she seems to be separating people into two camps: those for whom BDSM is uplifting and sweet and cute and those for whom it's a sweaty, seedy affair replete with "treating people like dogs," etc.

And... for me, that's just weird. Because while I *don't* do some of the "treated like a dog/worthless meatsack stuff you both seem to be describing, I have a fair amount of fantasies that are almost guro-cartoony in their violence. And I also have times where I revel in my partner's service (and I don't here just mean sexual service) as something intimate and sweet.

For me, BDSM is about BOTH, depending on who my partner is, how I'm feeling, what we've been up to lately, etc. So the idea that because I tend to talk more about the side of BDSM that political opponents ignore on a political blog means that I don't also think that a collar means a serious commitment just makes no sense to my brain.

As far as the specific things you talk about in your post, I think the major difference between your kink and mine is that when I am getting off on the dark stuff, it's... it's not thrilling that the other person is "a meatsack" to me. I'd have no reason to want to fuck a meatsack.

What's exciting and dark and spooky is that this IS a person, and that either because I'm so powerful or the other person is so lusty or greedy or desperate or whatever, I GET to treat the person like that. It's not "oh, look at this precious treasure," it's "People are priceless, and it's exactly because of that that I'm going to treat you like you're just there to be used."

I guess that's about transgression in its own way: Morality is suspended here. I can treat you like anything I want. I can take something priceless and break it, or at least threaten to.

But... eh. It's not just, you know, "I see a rule, let's break it, ha ha hee" as it is... intensely passionate, letting that "other part" out as you put it. It's just that for me it's not so much that that's how I want to see people as that I like the idea of someone being in a debased position, but not the idea that I actually hate them or want to hate them, even for a little while.

Does that make any sense outside my mind?

I think that's why I get in trouble with even a few kinky feminists who don't like the idea of "kinking on innocence." Because in some ways, I do. I like the idea of taking someone who is particularly valuable because they are, er, untarnished, and fucking around with them. Like... the vampire in the bad goth novel that finds the young princess and corrupts the young innocent, that kind of thing.

It's not that I like people who are young in age, it's that when I'm in a dark mood (which like I said above is not always, which people also miss. PEOPLE ARE COMPLICATED, DAMMIT), I like the idea of seducing people in a corrupting way. Or if I'm in a violent mood, of violently corrupting them.

So... yeah. I always find myself wincing when I hear people who are like "well, you can be kinky and be a feminist, but if you kink on innocence, you're a creep."

Meh. I never claimed the contents of my head were sterile, dammit. But if you think that has anything to do with how I interact with people who actually *are* vulnerable, like say, Scene newbies, there's something going wrong with your Fantasy Vs. Reality Deliberator, there.

Anonymous said...

I was the one who made the comment being responded to in this post, and actually, I'm a he =P (I call heterocentrism! You make a poor sexual liberationist! =)

I think I poorly communicated in that post, and I apologize. I didn't intend to separate people for whom BDSM is an uplifting thing and those who revel in the dark side- and for me, things like this original post ring hollow for my experience. Or rather, that's a path I don't want to go down: I'm quite fine with leaving my dark side unexplored.

That said, explanations that couch it in more respectable terms don't cotton to my experience. (of course, I'm sure you could find many, many instances of me being guilty of such on my blog). I can go on and on about the nobility of service, but for me at least, it's about being used.

Not that that means that I am reveling in my dark side. I'm concerned almost exclusively with the subjective experience, and BDSM is a world where up is down, black is blue, and being humiliated by being treated like a dog is an uplifting experience.

And I certainly didn't want to turn it into a "I'm more hardcorez and real than you fakers!"

Trinity said...

Anon,

I still don't quite understand. You seem to be saying two (or more) contradictory things. While BDSM is a paradox for many of us, I'm not sure you intended your words to be.

First, you said that the conversation rang hollow for you and sounded too nice. This seemed to be focused around my saying that I take collaring seriously. I'm honestly surprised that you've not run into this in Leather circles, but, well, to each their own.

Then, Ren I responded to you with the stuff that's NOT nice -- stuff about use, stuff about violent or scary fantasies -- and you said that's too much for you and you'd never do that.

Forgive me if I've totally misinterpreted you here, but it sounds an awful lot like things only resonate to you if they reflect your experience exactly.

Renegade Evolution said...

Trinity- Oh, I absolutely get "the corrupeter" allure. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with it if, well, the consent thing and all. It's terribly/wonderfully tempting to "test" people as it were, no doubt.

And sure enough, I think the biggest difference between the two of us is when it comes to personal/intense/connected...you like that stuff, I don't...and for all the shit you take for being "creepy"...you're far more "normal" on that front than I am.

Heh, you seem to like people in general more than I do.

Anon- I think I am sort of catching your vibe here, maybe...

In your experience with BDSM, words and what not which I might enjoy for the dark/brutal reasons, you might enjoy as well, but because it, in the context of your BDSM experience, is NOT the way I like it, but...nicer?

Victor said...

I guess I'll step up as someone who finds this very difficult to wrap my head around. Actual humiliation to me implies a lack of consent. If you agree to it, you aren't being humiliated, are you? And that creeps me out. Maybe it's just that the people I usually hear praising this thing are manipulative domly asshats who kink on the whole "oh, you just don't realize you agreed to this, and if you safeword, obviously you're weak and don't really understand submission" and shit.

Mind you, I can't understand 24/7 either, since I have huge problems with the deliberate removal of agency from people.

Now, a lot of what Ren talks about here rings true to me about it not always being about "look at what I have" but sometimes being about anger and ownership. I just think consent is so deeply ingrained in me that kinking on getting around people's consent and actively disliking the people you fuck (if you let me do that to you, I shouldn't respect you as a human) just triggers all my actual abuse flags.

Of course, I've been accused of not really being a kinkster in the past since I don't believe "It makes me hot" is sufficient justification for anything you feel like doing.

Trinity said...

I don't know, Ren.

I mean, you're right that I like intimacy. I guess that, for me, it's hard to imagine SM that works *not* being intimate in a way. Even the stuff I've done anonymously, part of the thrill is, "I don't even fucking know your name, but I know what you look like when you're desperate."

For me the symbolism of hurting someone is making them vulnerable, piercing their armor sort of a thing. So yeah, it can be mean and brutal (or nice and sweet, I like both) but it's about, hey, when I'm done ravishing you or whatever I'm going to see you as you truly are.

And for me, yeah, I think I see "what people truly are" as less dark than you do. I don't really see people, in the end, as "worthless meatsacks" so much as I see them as animals... scared or angry maybe but also maybe trusting or hopeful or any number of things. I want to strip a person down, but it's not really because I want to see how ugly they are inside, it's just because I want to see what's there. The mean stuff is how you get there, how you tear their defenses and their humanity away.

(I'm going to catch shit for saying "humanity" there, but I mean it as... what makes them not a feeling animal. I mean their ego, their denials, their illusions. I mean you rip that violently away and then you have... something.)

Does that make any sense?

Trinity said...

"Of course, I've been accused of not really being a kinkster in the past since I don't believe "It makes me hot" is sufficient justification for anything you feel like doing."

Hahaha!

I don't think that makes you not a kinkster, I just think it's wrongheaded, because there's no way at all to know whether something is harmful to someone or not without knowing them personally. So yeah, I think it's *dumb*, but I don't think it's *kink-removing.*

And I don't think D/s relationships remove agency. I think that's the idiot Internet version. If anything my partner is remembering and wanting to give service even when I'm not thinking about it. He feels like he's getting too much of the pleasure and fun if he's NOT "repaying" me with service. So is that removing agency? Is that, as the other post put it, unfairness?

But then, what we do isn't TPE by a long shot, it's just D/s. *shrug*

Renegade Evolution said...

Victor- Heh, I never denied being creepy, or an asshole.

trinity- Hahahaha, heheh, yes, there. You want to see what's there, me? I generally want them to get the fuck out! But what you say makes total sense, to me anyway.

Trinity said...

*nods* Yeah. I think we're really different in some ways but quite similar in others.

And yeah, I'm more normal than you. *cries*

Renegade Evolution said...

I won't tell anyone.

Victor said...

Ren - "Victor- Heh, I never denied being creepy, or an asshole."

Touche. Good thing you're generally a really interesting read. *smile*

Trinity -
"I don't think that makes you not a kinkster, I just think it's wrongheaded, because there's no way at all to know whether something is harmful to someone or not without knowing them personally. So yeah, I think it's *dumb*, but I don't think it's *kink-removing.*"

Yeah, me too. I didn't mean to imply I let it get to me. I just claim to be vanilla anyway, and then do whatever works for me and my partner.

I think I fall closer to you, Trinity, on the scale of how I view things. However, I am deeply distrustful of most humans, so that intimacy is hard won in my world. This might be why I find the people who happily think pushing anyone is fine really creepy.

For instance, I know someone who I generally think of as a decent guy, but his attitude is that people only ever tell you their soft limits. So if he negotiates play with someone (even in a flirting way) and they say "X is a line" for me, he will START at X, and see if he can make the line move. I find that creepy and weird and disrespectful, since it isn't like he limits that to people he's negotiated pushing boundaries with.

Also, Trinity, I should have specified that I meant things more like TPE. I don't think the vast majority of D/s removes agency either. Loose wording on my part, mea culpa.

Thinking about this more, I realize that I have come to believe that most people are really very bad about knowing and enforcing their boundaries, and when I see things that look like boundary violations I assume there IS a violation, rather than a deliberate choice to explore that boundary.

Alex said...

Victor:

Can you agree to feel shamed? I think you can. I think it's the entire premise behind confession. And humiliation is, to me, just the... extreme end of shame, where it gets so intense that you can't get away from it or push it aside in your head. Which is exactly what makes it hot, for me.

Does that make sense?

Trinity said...

"Can you agree to feel shamed? I think you can. I think it's the entire premise behind confession."

I don't think so. I think "agreeing to feel emotions" sounds way too academic. It's flashing me back to some really not-convincing discussions of feminist writing on shame... yecch. I don't think emotions are things you agree to.

Nor do I really think humiliation play in kink is about actual shame, either. I mean, I could be wrong on this because I'm not quite into the stuff Ren's talking about here, but I think... hmm.

First I wanted to say that it's about things society/people deem shameful, but that's not quite it. I mean, I do think that counts for some people's embarrassment kinks. A lot of kinky folk I know, for example (pace Anony) really DO mean "slut" or "my slut" or "my whore" as little more than "my very sexy person who people who don't get it would condemn but who really turns me on."

But yeah, that's not what EVERYone is doing. Some people really are delighting in darker sides of their psyche, playing with parts of themselves that are not just socially questionable but a personal minefield. That's what some people like doing. So are THEY courting real shame?

I don't know, and it's closer, but I still don't really think so. I don't think such a scene is about exploring what it's like to feel bad about yourself. I think it's something much more like what I (and I think Ren too in parts) describe above -- tearing away the socially proper veneer and revealing lust that is "unbecoming" in its intensity, its object, its fierceness, its indiscriminateness, whatever. But I'm not sure if the thrill is the shame, or if the thrill is being freed up to act on one's impulses, even if one wants supposedly shameful things.

And I'm not so sure confession is about wanting shame. I'd suspect it's about wanting expiation, though I am not and never was a practicing Catholic. (Though if you agree with Foucault, we live in a culture of confession anyway, particularly sexualized confession.)

Renegade Evolution said...

confession (from what I hear, I'm jewish) is about forgiveness.

and me personally, I'm hard to shame. To a fault, really. I know a lot of the stuff I'm actually into would be real harsh or even devestating to other people, so...I don't ask/force/encourage them to do it.

I actually have issue finding partners who are mean enough for my tastes.

Dw3t-Hthr said...

I wrote about this over at my place, and the trackback thing seems to have actually worked for once, so I'll be brief.

Shame/humiliation stuff is probably the hardest limit I've got. It makes me touchy in a lot of discussions about the subject. It's very frequent that someone will say "Being a submissive is about humiliation" or "Those words are degrading" or whatever else, and I just want to bite them in unfriendly ways.

The thing that makes it complicated is that I want my darkness, my less respectable stuff, my violent or socially unacceptable or whatever else -- I want that honored.

Which means not pretending that it's not there. It also means not treating it with contempt.

The words that get used sometimes -- I see them as acknowledging what's there. Other people see that language as degrading or humiliating or something, but I see no reason to be ashamed of who I am, shadows and all. So treating it as shameful mostly gets me mad.

I have no idea where that falls on the 'like Ren' spectrum. It looks like the same thing colour-inverted to me, kinda. Who knows?

Trinity said...

"The thing that makes it complicated is that I want my darkness, my less respectable stuff, my violent or socially unacceptable or whatever else -- I want that honored.

Which means not pretending that it's not there. It also means not treating it with contempt.

The words that get used sometimes -- I see them as acknowledging what's there. Other people see that language as degrading or humiliating or something, but I see no reason to be ashamed of who I am, shadows and all. So treating it as shameful mostly gets me mad."

That's pretty much exactly how I feel, which is why my brain can't parse "I like to be treated like a dog." I literally can't figure out what that SAYS, and I'm not sure it's Anony's fault.

I mean, part of it is that I have a dog, and how I treat her is play and food and treats and walks, so being treated like her... well, to my mind it would be just the same as being treated as a beloved, treasured submissive. She doesn't get to make the rules (though she does get her way sometimes, of course, she's cute) but she does get more love and fun than she knows what to do with.

Do I treat my partner like I treat her? Maybe not even -- he's human. We argue. :)

But as far as the confusion about shame and its place in kink, yeah, I share that too. I want to bring out and bring up that darkness and that *stuff*, but I want that experience to be... eh. I don't know how to say it, because if I say "nice and good" that makes it sound like I don't mean it's brutal and ugly and maybe even creepy. But if I don't say it, then I'm not getting at what I want the experience to mean and to do, which is ultimately... cleansing.

It's going through something, going into something, seeing life, the rough rawness and unfairness and cruelty of it and the responses to that, immediate, a fire in the blood.

But it's not "shame." "Shame" is how a timid person feels.

A dog that's treated badly, for real, if it doesn't fight in desperate defense, cowers.

I don't want someone who cowers.

I want someone who exults.

In EVERYTHING.

THAT is the point. Exulting in life, whether ugly or pretty.

Shame is retreat, and retreat from life has no place in this for me.

Renegade Evolution said...

D: Actually, its not that far off at all, really...all parts of me are parts of me, even the "unsavory" ones.

SnowdropExplodes said...

I think the humiliation thing is not about shame, when it's in a consensual relationship.

It seems to me it's more a form of "OMG Ican'tbelieveI'mdoingthis / Ican'tbelievethisishappeningtome" type of thing.

When I Top, and I'm looking for a "humiliation" response, I don't bring it myself, I don't seek to shame my partner - I use their own thoughts and feelings to get what I want, and I think it is all about persuading them to confront how far-removed this experience is from "normal" life.

When I sub/bottom, I am very touchy about humiliation, and it's not a place I want to go, because for me it does link too strongly to shame, and shame is not fun - but there are things that I parse as humiliating but not shaming, and those things I can enjoy. I would not like to bottom to myself, since the sort of humiliation that I like to induce in others, I myself would parse as shaming, and would hate. I think other people have different ways of parsing it because of their own life experiences, and that is why there are people who enjoy it when I do it to them.

On the verbal degradation thing, I can kind of take it both ways. I am fond of the saying I have that "I don't destroy her dignity, I just take it away from her and keep it safe until I give it back".

Sometimes, "slut" is a term of endearment. But sometimes I say it with a sneer of contempt, even disgust (I'm fond of using words like "slattern" and "harlot" in situations like that, good old-fashioned English words!) And when I say it with that sneer, that contempt, that disgust, I truly mean it that way at the time of saying it. But as soon as the session is over, the mood changes, and "slut" takes on its tender, loving sense again.

On the thing about Confession, I view that as being much more related to the discipline side of D/s. One goes in weighed down by the shame of wrongdoing, one confesses one's sins, and then one is figuratively cleansed, absolved and forgiven, by the act of doing penance (in BDSM terms, that's the Dominant administers some form of punishment on the Submissive). At the end of it all, shame has been washed away and whatever bad feelings there might have been, are left in the past.

Trinity said...

SD: I understand what you mean by the dignity remark, but I don't think you can do anything with people's dignity. I don't think it's the sort of thing you can take or keep.

Alex said...

Trin - okay, so 'agree to feel shamed' is a bit academic. Would 'agree to go into a situation where you might be shamed' work better?

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough that my comment was -just- me, not anyone else. :) And I -don't- think for me it's about a socially proper veneer, exactly. Maybe in some stories I like, yeah, it's about Person A wanting something but knowing that it's (socially) "wrong", and yet Person B knows the deeper want and brings it to light to the point where Person A can't stem the flood of wanting it and so does it.

And yeah, that's hot. Really, really hot.

But yeah, I do go into it looking for that feeling of... I guess I'd describe it as being crushed, backed up with physical 'punishment'. And I don't know if I can separate 'real shame' from 'fake shame' except by the end result, you know? My physical reaction to the emotion feels the same whether it's during play or not.

But if you want to make a new word for it, I wouldn't complain. :)

As for a word for the cleansing thing... Purging? Maybe? That has kind of negative connotations, but it's what I think of. (I envision is that one scene from Spirited Away...)

Trinity said...

Alex,

I can relate to the being crushed thing but I can't relate to the shame thing. Shame just makes me sad to be alive, and BDSM makes me happy, so... it's kind of like calling SM "abuse" to me. Some people actually DO call things "abuse" as a way of packing a wallop, like there's a song I like that talks about enjoying the abuse. But I couldn't call it that myself because it just doesn't work in my head.

Shame means something pretty specific in my head and that thing is tied to self-hatred. That's not something I want in my SM really.

I guess one could say I'd play with the things that make me feel self-hatred... but no, not usually. Or at least that's not how I see it. I see my self-hatred as pathology, as something my abusers inflicted on me. I see my self-acceptance as something good, and as what exploring the darkness through SM is about.

Victor said...

D and Trinity: I think you've covered most of the ground about what I think with the whole shame and humiliation thing.

Trinity: Cowering vs exulting - That nails it for me. I'm not interested in cower. I am a reaction junkie and there are all kinds of reactions I might like, but there's an exultation in it.

Alex: The "person wants something, but it is socially unacceptable, so B digs it out of them" thing... I always struggle with this. On the one hand, I get the side of this that's hot. On the other, I've seen it both used as an excuse to break promises or commitments by A and an excuse by B to play mind games of the "I know you better than you know yourself, so even though you say 'no' I know you mean yes" in a way I find abusive. All that tends to make me wary of it.

Of course, as has been pointed out repeatedly, we humans are complex creatures and these things are infinitely susceptible to context.

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