Thursday, 26 February 2009

Holy shit.

Now, yeah, it's a flame war. Flame wars get ugly.

But I have to say that this is absolutely, horrifically vile.

Nine Deuce on exactly why people lose their jobs for being kinky (aren't we glad we've got her to tell us)?

Stop comparing your situation to the plight of homosexuals. And stop comparing my arguments to those of asshole homophobes. There is something to the idea that M/f BDSM fetishizes women’s oppression, and you aren’t going to take attention from that by setting up a false and easily discredited analogy.

Why are people getting fired for being into BDSM? Ever heard of sexual harassment? Talking about sex at work isn’t cool, whether you’re straight, gay, into BDSM, or celibate. It’s just not appropriate. And to be honest, if I were a parent, I’d be concerned if my child’s other parent were into BDSM because I wouldn’t want my child exposed to it. It’s absolutely ridiculous to think you ought to have the right to normalize that kind of behavior in front of children who haven’t got the critical thinking abilities to understand what’s going on.

We all know that the vast majority of child molesters are straight men, which has been shown in study after study. I’m asking the questions about BDSM because what I’ve seen on a lot of websites amounts to serious emotional and physical abuse, and because I have, whatever you guys want to claim to the contrary, read women’s writings about being upset and frightened by the treatment they receive. The fact that I’m not yet convinced that what you’re into is cool and meshes with feminism doesn’t make me dishonest, it just means that I’ve yet to be convinced that black is white and up is down.

Wow. Wow. So... kinky people get fired because they sexually harass their co-workers.

Stupendous.

I'll be sure to ask my boss exactly how turning in the reports is sexual harassment.

You know, there's a reason I go by "Trinity" and such online. There's a reason only a small handful of people know my real name.

News flash: It's not because I like the names.

Wow.

I'm... stunned.

"Go kill yourself" was a rhetorical flourish. What's this one?

And done with this person, I think. That kind of cruelty doesn't come from people who are worth talking to.

24 comments:

Lissy said...

Yes because all kinksters have sex in front of their children... WTF!!! In RL I know no kinksters with kids who do not go to great lengths to hide their activities from their children, as ANYONE kinked or not should do.

She's making an awful lot of presumptions about the character of people who are into BDSM, the first one being that we're all sex mad morons who shove our activities down everyone's throats and have no sense of social propriety.

And yes! Abuse occurs in BDSM relationships, as it occurs in all sorts of other relationships, but this type of analysis does nothing practical to help those women (and men) who are in abusive BDSM relationships. All this type of analysis does is reinforce to a kinkster in an abusive relationship that they are wrong and deserve what happens to them.

Great way to help the Wymminz, really empowering.

devastatingyet said...

Once again it's just exactly the same kinds of comments used against gays. Children shouldn't be exposed to it. It's unnatural. It's gross. It's the result of abuse or trauma. We don't care what you do in your bedroom but don't shove it in our faces.

Alexandra Erin said...

I couldn't tell you if my parents did it missionary style, doggy style, cowgirl style, lie-back-and-think-of-England style or Kama Sutra By Way Of Twister Style.

I don't know how I'm supposed to know if they ever tied each other up or spanked each other.

Trinity said...

Alexandra Erin: I never knew such things either. I once found a gag-gift "Pop-up Kama Sutra" in a closet somewhere, but I had no way of telling how such a joke item reflected or didn't reflect my parents' sexual interests.

ND suggests she knew far more, and perhaps that's why she's jittery here:

http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2009/02/10/news-flash/#comment-6351

"AP - It isn’t “think of the children,” it’s actual concern for people in full-time M/s relationships with children. Do you really think it’s possible to keep from kids, in any case? Kids are nosy, and I knew where every “secret” thing in my parents’ room was when I was 6."

This kind of thing is foreign to me. And really, six year olds can pick locks? Perhaps some.

But to be totally fair, I have seen some people online (ah, onliners!) who claim they tell their kids so as to be "honest," and that's really disturbing.

I've met some people offline who've said "My kids know that what Daddy says goes in our house, and even Mommy knows it. But we're sure to tell them that other families work differently" though, and that bothers me too. I wonder how much information is too much.

Trinity said...

"Once again it's just exactly the same kinds of comments used against gays. Children shouldn't be exposed to it. It's unnatural. It's gross. It's the result of abuse or trauma. We don't care what you do in your bedroom but don't shove it in our faces."

Exactly... yet when a queer kinkster says it, ND, Straight Knight In Shining Armor Protecting the Truly Gay, sweeps in, lance shining, to drive off the pretender.

I know one isn't supposed to compare oppressions, but all I can think when I read her doing that is "White Man's Burden, anyone?"

Gaina said...

There are lots of things that young children don't need to know about in order for them to have happy little childhoods. Things like racism, war.....and militant, illogical misandrony. But I bet she'd miraculously find a way to justify ramming THAT down their throats?

And another comment that just struck me "I'd prefer if no-one bred"....what the fuck? **blinks**

Trinity said...

Gaina: Yeah, that comment had me WTFing severely as well.

Goose said...

Wow. Just wow.

Anonymous said...

I couldn't tell you if my parents did it missionary style, doggy style, cowgirl style, lie-back-and-think-of-England style or Kama Sutra By Way Of Twister Style.

Neither could I. I mean, I knew they had sex at least once by virtue of the fact that I'm here, but apart from the time when I walked in on them at the age of eight, I can't tell you anything my parents did in the bedroom. (And I learned to knock after that incident, let me tell you.) I did read my dad's Penthouse when I was twelve, but he didn't do a good job of hiding them and it certainly didn't traumatize me in the least.

My son won't know about my sex life. Doors have locks, and so do foot lockers and the like. I'll tell him about the birds and the bees, but it's none of his business what I enjoy doing with my owner behind closed doors. So, how is that different from parents who have a kink-free sex life?

SnowdropExplodes said...

Yep - it is the same thing again as gay folks faced.

The idea that different sexuality is so all-consuming in defining a person that it's the only thing they can think about or do all day, and they have no idea of normal boundaries. I encountered that with my own parents (story is here).

The real reason that kinky folks get fired is because newspapers invade their privacy and splash their activities without their consent all over the front page (and several other pages too) and start another "Shock Horror This Stuff Is Ev0l" moral panic, and persuade the company that they are better off parting ways with the kinky employee. Or, if they find out by some cruel chance, they may take pre-emptive action to prevent that shock-horror story reflecting on them.

Kinky folks I know with kids go to great lengths to keep their sexual activities hidden, and if that gets violated. I think it is important when you have a 24/7 dynamic that kids understand that the power relationship in the house is not typical, so I can see the point of:

I've met some people offline who've said "My kids know that what Daddy says goes in our house, and even Mommy knows it. But we're sure to tell them that other families work differently". I think kids are actually very good at picking up on power relationships in a household, and being open about what they actually mean (and incidentally, not involving the kids in the same dynamic as the parents have) is pretty important.

whatsername said...

If she doesn't want people to relate her arguments to ones made by homophobes...maybe she shouldn't make arguments made by homophobes?

I mean really:

"if I were a parent, I’d be concerned if my child’s other parent were into BDSM because I wouldn’t want my child exposed to it. It’s absolutely ridiculous to think you ought to have the right to normalize that kind of behavior in front of children who haven’t got the critical thinking abilities to understand what’s going on."

Gee whiz that doesn't sound familiar at ALL!

Trinity said...

"I think kids are actually very good at picking up on power relationships in a household, and being open about what they actually mean (and incidentally, not involving the kids in the same dynamic as the parents have) is pretty important."

SD - see my most recent post for an answer to this one. I think kids do pick up on things, but I also think that just saying "well, some women run the household" is a cop-out if the way you treat one another is sending the message that women serve men.

rooroo said...

Can't say I knew anything about my parent's sex lives. Although, when I went to buy my first ever bra at M&S (oh hell, I've just noticed that's an inversion of S&M - maybe that's the reason?!?) I saw my mum looking at lingerie, how dare she expose me to her potentially damaging activities!

Anonymous said...

Its a mistake to assume that Nine Deuce is doing all this in good faith. Nine deuce has seen this same coversation play out on other blogs like I Blame the Patriarchy. This is the coversation she wanted to have.

She bounces between reasonable arguments and offensive comments, and back again. She allows some commenters like Jenn to be insulting and provoke responses that nine deuce can then call unreasonable. When called out on this she simply locks people out of the blog.

These people are self defined radicals. They are not interested in listening to you. They are radicalized, and are not going to be accepting of information or arguments that do not aid their political goals.

Politically it is better for them to other you as a kinkster than to accept you. What is right or wrong, or the weight of your arguments will not come into it. This is what radical means.

I am at a loss for what the right stratagy is here. It seems like ignoring them might be the best course, or at least avoid posting on their blogs.

Maybe its better to go on there and do what you can.

The main thing to understand is that there is no intelectual curiosity, no dialouge and no good faith. THe attacks are attacks and they are politically motivated.
femanists may be your allie but radical femanists are not.



It

whatsername said...

Being a "self defined radical" doesn't mean someone is immune to varying arguments the way she is.

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