However, a few people have been clamoring for my return, so... *wink*
I did find this (a bit old, but then I haven't been around):
If a person gets turned on by random objects, animals, excrement, shoes, or whatever the heck, I’m not okay with that. That is pathological, and represents an underdeveloped consciousness. As a child matures, he becomes less vital-egoistic, and lives with a higher level of self-discipline. But in an excessively liberal society where people live in a kind of prolonged childhood, they never grow out of that undisciplined, vital-egoistic state; seeking titillation with a kind of desperate and unfree movement, addicted to excitement and adrenaline. Those who seek excitement through kink represent that stunted state, along with those who are promiscuous, view pornography, are involved in extreme sports and so on. Their consciousness is highly ‘material’, more like that of an animal, and undisciplined. Instead of encouraging these pathological behaviours, we should criticize them and create a cultural norm against them.It's been a while since I last ran into a critique like this. It sounds a bit Freudian, doesn't it, all laced with references to "development" and filled with interesting scientific-sounding neologisms like "vital-egoistic."
Thing is, when someone resorts to words like this without even defining them, that's a sure sign that the theory behind it all is bankrupt. Nowhere does the person define "vital-egoistic," or link to any use of this term in any accepted theory. (Perhaps, if it's intended to evoke Freud, I should be saying "accepted and then widely discredited" -- for all that psychoanalytic theory was a revolution in thinking that has had profound effects on psychology and psychiatry both, quite a lot of it has been rejected, and rightfully so.) A quick Google yields only this individual's own blog as a search result for the term.
The idea that certain ways of behaving -- particularly indulging or acting on certain desires -- is a sign of arrested development is a favorite debate tactic of the intellectually bankrupt, precisely because it's nearly impossible to argue against "You're underdeveloped." All of us have our weaknesses and our demons, and all of us specifically have our insecurities and fears and secret shames in the sexual arena, too. It's very easy to hear "some part of your maturation is unfinished" and wonder how true that might be, precisely because none of us are perfect.
But it's an underhanded tactic to use that to shame someone, or to use that to set yourself in opposition to something they want, as if your disapproval can rewire desire.
Especially in a culture where sex is often deemed to be dirty in general -- a need we all have, yes, but a shameful one. Especially if one is a "pervert," at which point one is at best silly and quaint and at worst a danger, as others tell it.
Add to that the standard drivel in the general vein of
I am critical of BDSM, and do not consider it an acceptable practice merely because consenting adults participate in it. I think BDSM eroticizes violence and dehumanization, and is a logical outcome of patriarchal conceptions of sexuality as domination, destruction and ownership.and you have, well, lovely little boilerplate. I'd be far more inclined to listen to these people if they didn't parrot supposedly-"feminist" buzzwords in such close proximity to one another. While this person probably is intelligent, it honestly makes it sound like the person doesn't know what s/he is saying at all. What are "violence and dehumanization" in this context? What counts as each? What is "domination" here, and how does consent to it affect or not affect its moral contours?
"Dehumanization" is a particular pet peeve of mine, as is "degradation," because so often the assertion that particular acts or depictions are inherently dehumanizing or degrading and this is simply obvious and anyone who doesn't see it is damaged. That's a handy thing to say, but it's not actually an argument, unless you can in fact prove either
- that the words apply in the cases you say they do, or
- that the people asserting that they don't are in fact damaged, and in ways that prevent them from comprehending these concepts properly.
61 comments:
Thinking About My Kink posted about degradation not unrecently, which is a lovely takedown of a similar flavor of nonsense.
Eh. I like the post. But the thing is... I'm not convinced that people *fantasizing* about degradation -- whatever precisely it turns out to be -- is the same thing as being degraded. I could want a very emotionally draining experience for catharsis, let's say, but not want to come out of it actually feeling that the other looks down on me, much less look down on myself.
The thing is, though, that if you allow the discussion to be about degradation, these types tend to take that as an admission that most BDSM is about degradation fantasies, when for a lot of people it's not. I don't have any problem with defending the heavy stuff... but I wish people didn't assume it's all there is and write off the rest as us lying or sugarcoating.
I got so excited when I saw this post on my reader I've been missing you posting here! Though have enjoyed Transformers talk over at LJ...
That link made me go *head-desk*.
it's not actually an argument, unless you can in fact prove either
that the words apply in the cases you say they do, or that the people asserting that they don't are in fact damaged, and in ways that prevent them from comprehending these concepts properly.
Let's say proof = evidence and refer to the author at comment no 13:
‘Evidence’ is not the appropriate word to use in this context, but if you insist on using it, the only evidence that can be used for matters like this is analytical and phenomenological, such as the ones radical feminists give
The author's got it all worked out evidence or proof is not required in this context!!! Probably because 'evidence' would be a material thing and spiritually developed types like the author don't truck with the material plane... puh-lease!
I also want to know why someone who calls themselves a virtue ethicist is even concerning themselves with what other people do? One of the main ideas of virtue ethics is that its about personal flourishing and therefore practitioners should only be concerned about other people's behaviour as examples from which to develop their own practical reason. But you know seeing as s/he never read Aristotle that bit probably got missed.
And oh my god I feel like an embarrassed fan-girl... Trinity liked my post even with a but!
I'm not convinced that people *fantasizing* about degradation -- whatever precisely it turns out to be -- is the same thing as being degraded. I could want a very emotionally draining experience for catharsis, let's say, but not want to come out of it actually feeling that the other looks down on me, much less look down on myself.
I totally agree that fantasising about degradation is different from wanting to be degraded. I do wonder though; do some kinksters identify their desires/ activities as degrading only because wider social norms say they must be, rather than the kinkster actually feeling degraded themselves by the activity? e.g. lots of kinksters into humiliation play write of seeking catharsis or emotional release in order to feel better about themselves. This seems to be the opposite of degradation which to my mind is all about feeling bad/ worse about oneself.
if you allow the discussion to be about degradation, these types tend to take that as an admission that most BDSM is about degradation fantasies, when for a lot of people it's not. I don't have any problem with defending the heavy stuff... but I wish people didn't assume it's all there is and write off the rest as us lying or sugarcoating.
Yes!
"'‘Evidence’ is not the appropriate word to use in this context, but if you insist on using it, the only evidence that can be used for matters like this is analytical and phenomenological, such as the ones radical feminists give'
The author's got it all worked out evidence or proof is not required in this context!!!"
Yeah. I think they do that when they know they haven't got a leg to stand on, personally.
I mean, really, there *are* studies. Not nearly enough, and it's worth pointing out where they're flawed or too small, of course. But it's funny how rarely I see antis citing them.
"I totally agree that fantasising about degradation is different from wanting to be degraded. I do wonder though; do some kinksters identify their desires/ activities as degrading only because wider social norms say they must be, rather than the kinkster actually feeling degraded themselves by the activity? e.g. lots of kinksters into humiliation play write of seeking catharsis or emotional release in order to feel better about themselves. This seems to be the opposite of degradation which to my mind is all about feeling bad/ worse about oneself."
Yeah, I agree with this that what we're talking about is not about actual degradation. But I do also think that for someone who does have a heavy humiliation kink, even someone who is using that in an ultimately positive way... it may not be productive to squabble over what word belongs in the fantasy.
I can easily see someone finding intense words like "degrade," "reduce," even "destroy" particularly hot in-scene, and not particularly being interested in replacing them with things like "lower" or some other sufficiently not-creepy-sounding word.
Sometimes toying with creepy in a controlled way that doesn't affect the rest of your life is the point.
I mean, really, there *are* studies. Not nearly enough, and it's worth pointing out where they're flawed or too small, of course. But it's funny how rarely I see antis citing them.
Could that be because those few studies that do exist and aren't... you know using criminals as their research subjects... kind of blow their bullshit out of the water?
for someone who does have a heavy humiliation kink, even someone who is using that in an ultimately positive way... it may not be productive to squabble over what word belongs in the fantasy.
I can easily see someone finding intense words like "degrade," "reduce," even "destroy" particularly hot in-scene, and not particularly being interested in replacing them with things like "lower" or some other sufficiently not-creepy-sounding word.
Ahhh... get what you're saying...I can see this too... IMO words can be sensation tools just like a flogger or a cane. But that is a thought that only occurred to me after I'd put the post up... Different words have different sensations and the same words don't work for everyone. I haven't got any further in my thinking than that.
I'm certainly not going to squabble with anyone about the words they use to describe or engage in their kinkiness but I will squabble with someone who makes a blanket statement about kinkiness being all about degradation/ the patriarchiez/etc. especially when they're only doing so in order to construct a hierarchy of 'good feminist behaviour' and 'bad feminist behaviour' which to my mind merely reinforces the bullshit Madonna/Whore binary.
Sometimes toying with creepy in a controlled way that doesn't affect the rest of your life is the point.
I kink on breath play, controlled creepy can be the total hotness!
"Could that be because those few studies that do exist and aren't... you know using criminals as their research subjects... kind of blow their bullshit out of the water?"
Pretty much. It's been a while since I pored closely over study results, though I still have several here.
Most I've seen have concluded something along the lines of "None of these theories we tested about why people do this stuff had strong evidence for it. One might have had some weak evidence, but we recommend looking for totally different explanations because... honestly, we've got nothing."
"
I'm certainly not going to squabble with anyone about the words they use to describe or engage in their kinkiness but I will squabble with someone who makes a blanket statement about kinkiness being all about degradation/ the patriarchiez/etc. especially when they're only doing so in order to construct a hierarchy of 'good feminist behaviour' and 'bad feminist behaviour' which to my mind merely reinforces the bullshit Madonna/Whore binary."
No argument here. I just think that those blanket-staters are probably keying on some language that doesn't mean what they think it means.
Somebody begging someone as part of acting out a fantasy "debase me!" or the like, because it turns them on to say so, is not the same thing as someone saying "Debase me, because I really don't think I'm worthy of anything more."
This is... not a perfect analogy, but: it's the difference between hating apples but asking for one enjoying playing the role of someone who likes them for some reason, and hating apples and asking for them because I feel I deserve to be punished for something.
Most I've seen have concluded something along the lines of "None of these theories we tested about why people do this stuff had strong evidence for it. One might have had some weak evidence, but we recommend looking for totally different explanations because... honestly, we've got nothing."
I love the conclusion for some Australian research: "Our findings support the idea that BDSM is simply a sexual interest or subculture attractive to a minority, and for most participants not a pathological symptom of past abuse or difficulty with "normal" sex."
I just think that those blanket-staters are probably keying on some language that doesn't mean what they think it means.
I quite often notice that- particularly when the anti's are using equating dominance with sadism and submission with masochism. It's pretty clear they have no clue what those words mean in a kink context.
it's the difference between hating apples but asking for one enjoying playing the role of someone who likes them for some reason, and hating apples and asking for them because I feel I deserve to be punished for something.
Meanwhile the anti's argue that apples are inherently bad and everybody really wants to ask for oranges but we're incapable of knowing that because we've been socially conditioned to accept apples as the fruit of desire... another imperfect analogy I admit.
I think it's a great analogy. I'm allergic to oranges. :P
"No really, what's good for you is this thing that might make you stop breathing" is about how the anti-types' arguments look from here a lot of the time.
"‘Evidence’ is not the appropriate word to use in this context, but if you insist on using it, the only evidence that can be used for matters like this is analytical and phenomenological, such as the ones radical feminists give"
Actually, I'll defend this point to a degree.
The thing is, the feminists lack the phenomenological evidence, not being submissive or masochists themselves, and as such their analysis is ultimately flawed.
Such an argument really boils down to it's a personal thing. One would wonder why someone coming from such a perspective would believe herself to have the knowledge necessary to come to a conclusion about something that is a lived experience which she hasn't had.
Whoo, a post here!
I just look at a post like that and laugh. I can't even begin to take it seriously enough to argue with it.
It's one thing to argue with someone who believes you're wrong, but will accept that you're speaking on the same level. It's another thing entirely when someone thinks that you're just not evolved enough.
I love the highfalutin' way of saying, "The things you are passionate about and enjoy disgust me, except that I'm too high of a being to be disgusted. So I just want to know that I very, very calmly see you as underdeveloped."
Yeah. Right.
I especially like how she talks about how her sexual desires disappeared when she got more Zen. Not that I see anything wrong with that, or that I don't think celibacy can be a wonderful personal choice. But from there, she moves to, "therefore, sex is obviously this base thing we should all give up."
I mean, as long as we're extrapolating our personal relationships with sex to other people...hey, I used to complain about other people's lack of ability to "evolve" past sex, too.
At a point in my life when I was very, very uncomfortable with sex and out of touch with my sexuality, that is. Although I wouldn't have admitted it.
I wonder what sort of nasty speculations I could come up with to project onto this poster based on that. Hmm.
It shocks me not one bit that she's also apparently queer-by-choice. I have yet to meet someone queer-by-choice who doesn't view sexual desire as something we should all be evolved enough to control.
Yay! A new post here!
I spent a long time chatting with BIOM on the thread you link, and a few others, and after a while I decided to give up. I realized, in part, that BIOM (like 9/2 and FactCheckMe and Harmony and several other bloggers) was openly willing to reject or delete comments (or entire threads) that cast her arguments in a bad light.
This gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies, and it makes me feel like engaging in discussion in such a space simply provides content for her to manipulate. And I realize that it is a fairly common practice, and not at all unique to radical feminism. But screaming heebie-jeebies all the same.
I have been trying to collate the reserch on BDSM for exactly this reason. It's barely started, but it's at:
www.kinkresearch.blogspot.com
"I realized, in part, that BIOM (like 9/2 and FactCheckMe and Harmony and several other bloggers) was openly willing to reject or delete comments (or entire threads) that cast her arguments in a bad light."
I utterly hate the comment deletion thing. I mean, even if someone is a troll, why *delete* what he said? Why not leave it up and just ban the bastard?
(Unless it's, say, a threat of violence. In which case you delete it but keep a log and report it.)
I know how much they hate it when one calls those comment policies tyrannical... but what else is there to call "making sure disagreeing views are rendered invisible?"
I'm very glad to see that research blog, Orlando C.
I am glad you are back...
My response to this kind of stuff? Pfft...fine, i will be here over with the animals, thanks.
Glad to see this blog getting some action (I owe a story to it at least to be as much a contributor and user.)
Yeah. Proof by diagnosis - especially diagnosis without any empirical basis to it. You know, like DSM I and homosexuality?
Even better if you can pretend mystical terms are scientific terms. We'll just pull out the ol' developometer (or is it consciousnessomter?) here and check you out for "underdeveloped consciousness". (Mine says that someone who declares "My areas of interest are theology, consciousness and ethics." is over developed, torqued well into the red zone.)
'vital-egoistic'? What the hell is 'vital-egoistic'? You know, making up words and expecting other people to know what you're talking about is a symptom of schizophrenia.
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A wide healthiness program tailored to an individual resolve probably focus on harmonious or more definitive skills, and on age-[3] or health-related needs such as bone health.[4] Tons sources[citation needed] also cite disposition, societal and nervous strength as an important purposes of overall fitness. This is regularly presented in textbooks as a triangle made up of three points, which represent true, poignant, and psychotic fitness. Incarnate good shape can also hamper or investigate numerous chronic salubrity conditions brought on by way of detrimental lifestyle or aging.[5] Working pass‚ can also serve people saw wood better. To live healthy it is notable to engage in physical activity.
Training
Specific or task-oriented [url=http://www.pella.pl]fitness[/url] is a person's power to perform in a specific vigour with a sound expertness: after case, sports or military service. Individual to training prepares athletes to perform wonderfully in their sports.
Examples are:
400 m sprint: in a sprint the athlete necessity be trained to redundant anaerobically from one end to the other of the race.
Marathon: in this what really happened the athlete requirement be trained to being done aerobically and their perseverance have to be built-up to a maximum.
Divers run a risk fighters and patrol officers bear level aptness testing to end if they are qualified of the physically hard tasks required of the job.
Members of the Partnership States Army and Army Native Convoy necessity be proficient to pass the Army Physical Fitness Try out (APFT).
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