Delphyne, on why going to seminars and demos at BDSM groups is a bad thing (would she rather us all just fly blind? Great idea):
As for education, every second BDSMer I seem to come across claims to be a sex educator. You lot are always going on about how important education is in BDSM - for example it was one of the main apologetics for the guy who did the BDSM 101 thing. Trinity even attends seminars on it apparently. That’s a hell of a lot closer to indoctrination than anything I’ve seen in feminism. Let’s also not ignore how reinforcing a message with pain is one of the top tricks in the brainwashers’ arsenal. I think everything you claim to be true of us is actually true of yourselves.
There you have it, folks: Learning how to do things is actually indoctrination.
I don't even know what to say in response to that it's so completely ridiculous.
16 comments:
You're doing better than me, I'm increasingly confuzzled at how to even begin to respond to anything on that site.
Ironically it's making me more masochistic - the more I read, the more I find myself banging my head on the desk.
Riight, and I'm a purple people eater from Mars. It would be nice if people used real logic instead of flawed logic based on a warped reality.
Joy
I appreciate that commenter's honesty. They are admitting that their "critique" of s/m is purely faith based and not rooted in knowledge of the subject, much less critical theory. They are following in the grand tradition religious idiocy by opposing the spread of knowledge contrary to their faith.
On the other hand, if "indoctrinated" means getting really good with a whip, then please do sign me up!!!
maybe there's nothing left to say.
Looking back at your blog, I'm really kind of astounded but not surprised -- if you can imagine that being possible -- at the last few posts, and the whole "people with unusual sexualities should just kill themselves / give it up for the good of everyone, because acting on those desires is so horrible" thing. Those really are the classic sentiments that are expressed to gay teens.
So what's going on there? Internalized patriarchy? Perhaps so. But it's so unexamined, and therefore harmful. I mean, this commenter you're responding to makes an argument based on projection -- I'll try one like that, then. What are people like ND really doing, if you just look at the actions rather than the content? Well, they appear to be getting off on humiliating people and making them feel bad. OK, they're frustrated doms. (Look back at ND's description of her early experiments with the BDSM scene. My (unfounded, of course) guess is that if there had been a few more dominant women around, she might be the one with the whip now.) It's even kind of consensual; no one makes anyone go to their site and read their stuff. But since they aren't letting themselves realize that they're doing it as play, there's no way for them to tell people that they don't really mean it. What's way more potentially harmful than some dom who knows that he or she is a dom and who's always concerned about whether it's dangerous is someone who cheerfully assimilates that into politics. Really, how many people have died from self-recognized doms out of control, vs. how many kill themselves because everywhere they look, including feminist blogs, they're getting messages that they are shameful and not OK? And I'm talking women here, of course; patriarchy means that men aren't going to be as ashamed of being doms as women are of being subs, doms, or, well, anything.
I realize that this comment is really annoying; the people doing this seem well-meaning, and no one likes Internet psychologizing. (And yes, I also realize that I'm writing the comment under my real name. I think that's it best to.) But really, their politics don't seem to make any sense otherwise. The whole concept seems to be based around "whenever a woman submits as part of sexual play, that encourages patriarchy and therefore hurts all women." All right, translated into a political program, that aims for 100% compliance, doesn't it? Are there supposed to be any intermediate effects that don't require every woman in the world to agree on something?
I did some feminist culture activism for a while -- one of those men talking to men groups, telling them that e.g. no it wasn't funny to make misogynist jokes, trying to be a presence in the locker room that wouldn't play along with the usual "oh now we can say what we really think" thing, and so on -- and I must have been pretty young and clueless. But even then I would have seen through this whole slut-shaming bit disguised as "love the sinner, hate the sin." I can't help but think that really, they could see it too, if that didn't mean that they'd have to admit something about themselves that they'd rather not admit.
OH puhlease! What the hell does she think feminist consciousness-raising groups were accused of in the second wave? When in reality what they doing was giving women a safe place to be themselves and share their reality while also receiving support and information/ education.
And as someone who has had her feminist work labelled as 'indoctrination', I find this even more offensive. Information is not indoctrination, information is what allows a person to know their own power and the ways in which they can exercise it.
I really hate to say it but I think that this whole 'discussion' (for lack of a better word) is not actually about kinky peoples and our desires and what-not, and trying to get us to stand straight (or at least un-kinked) in the feminist line. I actually think that comments like this are about keeping other rad-fems in line; and it is indoctrination "Radical feminists believe this and look at how horrible and mean we can be to those who don't agree with us."
If that's not indoctrination through pain and humiliation then WTF is?
Well you know Trin, every BDSM thing I have EVER been to, everyone is sitting around with laptops and notebooks...
or not.
I do not know where the sex educator thing comes from, other than perhaps her ass.
Hummm, imagine that?
"I'm really kind of astounded but not surprised -- if you can imagine that being possible -- at the last few posts, and the whole "people with unusual sexualities should just kill themselves / give it up for the good of everyone, because acting on those desires is so horrible" thing. Those really are the classic sentiments that are expressed to gay teens."
Yeah, they are. Except that if you dare to say that over there, the REAL LESBIANS get on your case for co-opting queer identity or something.
Yeah, um... still bi, here.
Though my attractions to women might be a bit too sexual for some of these folk! O.o
"What the hell does she think feminist consciousness-raising groups were accused of in the second wave?"
I've been trying to say exactly that, but of course they're not fans of it.
Rich Puchalsky said:
"Well, they appear to be getting off on humiliating people and making them feel bad. OK, they're frustrated doms."
Yep. Something that others have noted before too.
Ren said:
"I do not know where the sex educator thing comes from, other than perhaps her ass."
Well, I'm 180 degrees from Delphyne on, well, everything really, but even I find the term "sex educator" to be overused, as well as dangerously close to crossing the line into pretension unless somebody has some very deep knowledge to back that title up with.
But as to the gist of what Delphyne said about indoctrination, etc, more cranial-rectal inversion syndrome, something she's poster girl for at this point.
Yeah, iamcuriousblue, looking back at my comment, I think I wrote one long string of things that other people already wrote.
"Yeah, iamcuriousblue, looking back at my comment, I think I wrote one long string of things that other people already wrote."
Actually, I'm not sure if that was brought up over RATM, though I can just picture the shitstorm if it was. One person did bring it up on their own blog, though here
What I meant is that a number of times, well before this debate, people have brought up the analogy between radfems and femdoms – its an analogy I've made before, certainly. There's also Susie Bright famous quote about Andrea Dworkin being the modern-day reincarnation of de Sade.
So properly education yourself and having all the facts before you make an informed descision is..indoctrination?
Okaaay.....
LOL
This is the same argument the christian right uses when they say that lack of sex education leads to abstinence.
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