Wednesday, 13 May 2009

Guest Post: "BDSM: A Class Act?"

This guest post is by Mz. Muse (I gather this is the name she uses on Feministing, but I don't know how to find her profile to link it). It was originally posted to a locked post in her livejournal some time ago, and I offered to give it a wider audience here; after some edits and tweaks, here it is.


"BDSM: A Class Act?" by Mz. Muse


I read this article about BDSM and feminism linked off a friend's journal. I ranted about it a little in his journal, but it was still bothering me in the shower this morning (and not in the way I might like kinky feminists to bother me in the shower).

So it gets it's own ranty little post. In the above article, "The Fantasy of Acceptable Non-Consent", Stacey May Fowles puts forward the theory that BDSM culture shares culpability for creating what she calls "rape culture", a culture that normalizes violence against women. Her article is well worth reading, so don't see my recap of it as a short-cut to her own thoughts. I'm responding to just one section, in which she suggests that BDSM tropes leak into mainstream pornography. Without the benefit of careful training in the BDSM community's standards of safe, sane, consensual play, Fowles believes that young men who grow up seeing images of women bound, gagged or apparently forced into sex will enact these scenes on unwilling victims instead of enthusiastic play partners.

Fowles treads dangerously close to the anti-porn feminist position that pornography inspires rape. If that were true, logically such pornography should be banned, which leads us right down the primrose path of censorship to the lovely hell of condemning ourselves and others for thought crimes. There's also the risk of hanging our allies out to dry for being too dark and dirty, as happens so often in minority rights movements, especially sexual ones. For the most part, mainstream porn doesn't turn me on, but I still feel compelled to defend its right to exist and get others off.

Fowles talks about sexual domination of women as if BDSM invented it. For example, she refers to anything approaching rape fantasy as "desires specific to BDSM". I'd venture that the reverse is true - the desire for sexual power play prompted the creation of BDSM. Violent sex is hot. People of all genders have, I'd venture, been fantasizing about it and doing it for as long as there's been sex and power.

The Marquis de Sade, in the 1790s, eroticized rape, torture and even murder. It's from his writings that we draw our word for sexual cruelty. Masochism comes from Sacher-Masoch, who published Venus in Furs, his autobiographical account of making himself his mistress' slave in 1870.

My suspicion is that modern BDSM evolved as a way to play with fire and not get burned; it's a safety code and community that lets us do the dark things our ids beg for without exposing our polite, socialized selves to the pain of becoming either victims or brutal aggressors. Knowing about BDSM doesn't make me want to have kinky sex; being human and wired that way makes me want kinky sex. BDSM just gives me tools to do it safely.

Inside Fowles assertion that "serious BDSM practitioners" can and should be allowed to do the violent, dark things that the "average young male heterosexual" can't be trusted to even jerk off to fantasies about, I think I see a hidden class issue. It's not merely that Fowles’ BDSM culture is defined as much by expensive props and $400 leather boots as it is by the rules of safe-sane-consensual play. It's that she's missing the history of sexual aggression between classes when she asserts that we live in a modern, newly created rape culture.

Fowles is looking at BDSM tropes in the mainstream porn videos distributed on the Internet and seeing the cheap, easy access to these images as a source of "rape culture". She thinks these images suggest desires and acts to young men that otherwise they'd be blissfully ignorant of.

We have a solid literary record stretching back at least three hundred years of a culture where women were expected to maintain their virtue through chastity, young men were expected to engage in casual sex, and there was plenty of kinky porn. Probably those things have been true much longer; it’s my personal knowledge of literary history that goes back only that far, not the existence of kinky porn. If "women", by which we mean middle- and upper-class women, were all going to their marriage beds virgins, who were these guys fucking?

The servants. Prostitutes. Poor girls. These are the people de Sade was routinely accused of abusing and molesting before he was imprisoned. The people who over and over again in literature and historical record are raped, knocked up, “ruined” and cast aside by men of a higher social class who would never dream of laying an improper hand on their social peers.

I would suggest that the cultural shift which has occurred in the past few generations is not the creation of a "rape culture", but a culture in which respectable middle-class women are more likely to be targeted as victims of sexual assault by their peers, and therefore one in which rape has become more visible as a problem. I would bet that women are no more likely to be raped now than they were a century ago; in fact I bet we are on average safer from sexual assault. But the breakdown in rigid class systems and rigid sexual mores creates an atmosphere where "nice girls" are at greater risk from assault by otherwise “nice” boys.

I think the responsibility for this shift could be argued to lie with the Sexual Revolution and the accompanying wave of feminism that followed it. Around the middle of the 20th century, (I am wildly theorizing) two things happened: young middle class American men (the group I think Fowles is really talking about when she refers to "average males") stopped having access to socially sanctioned targets for sexual aggression - domestic servants have become wildly uncommon, visiting prostitutes is not part of the normal adolescent experience in the States, class barriers got a lot mushier after WWII, women's rights in general have come into public awareness to the point where raping anyone is frowned on - and young women began to claim their sexual agency and independence in a way that made them newly sexually available.

We now have a culture where young men are taught to view young women of their own class as sexual commodities, while a few generations ago they would have been brought up to view their female peers as the "angels in the house" whom they might love or marry and the lower class women in their lives as sex objects who they might fuck, with or without consent. A man growing up today learns to look to his girlfriend/wife to play out violent fantasies that he might once have satisfied with a prostitute or not at all.

This cultural shift gives us a lot of great things - sexual agency! safe, sane, consensual kink! birth control! - but with it we have all inherited some of the risk that used to belong more clearly to women on the fringes of respectable society. It's not BDSM, or its watered-down aesthetic leaking into mainstream porn, that contributes to a culture of rape.

The possibly increased risk that "nice" middle-class white women will be raped by "nice" middle-class white men is a shadowy by-product of the otherwise good work of liberal feminism and the sexual revolution in giving women more sexual agency and "leveling the playing field" as it were.

We now have a more fair, just system than in the past, where any woman can be seen to be sexually available to anyone walking down the street, instead of only certain classes, races and roles of women being seen that way. Which means that more women who otherwise might have expected to live in sexual safety are exposed to situations where they might be raped.

Similarly, men who previously could have used their power to demand sexual consent from a servant, slave or lower-class woman now have to negotiate for any sexual encounter, so more of them are exposed to charges of rape where before their behavior would have been written off as "sowing wild oats" or "boys being boys".

Also, I think more people now expect to get from their partners/spouses the kind of sexual services they would once have not dared ask for, and only expected a whore to be available for. Which again means more negotiation of the kind very few of us get good training in.

It's not that feminism is a problem per se. It's just that in solving one set of problems we've created some new ones, which we can in turn solve by doing a next layer of work on sexual consent and gender rights. I think that work is well under way. But pointing fingers outside of mainstream feminism to blame kink or porn for "rape culture" is not helping.

NOTE: I was painfully aware of the specter of race as I wrote this, but didn't feel like I had the background to do it justice without a lot more research than I was going to get done this afternoon between diaper changes.

424 comments:

1 – 200 of 424   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault

According to RAINN the number of sexual assaults has fallen by more than 60% over the last decade or so. During this same decade, pornography became easier to access than ever before, leaving the 'anti-porn thesis' with no legs left to stand on.

FeatFollower said...

"Fowles treads dangerously close to the anti-porn feminist position that pornography inspires rape. If that were true, logically such pornography should be banned, which leads us right down the primrose path of censorship to the lovely hell of condemning ourselves and others for thought crimes."

Well put. To address this point, feminists and non-feministes can create some ground rules for BDSM porn and (even more so) non-BDSM porn that outline standards such as published intro-scene and exit-scene interviews about the porn models opinions.

Becstar said...

being human and wired that way makes me want kinky sexThis is exactly the sort of thing which I was talking against in the Facebook post. Being kinky does not follow being human. It is not a universal truth. It is not something that everyone desires.

Becstar said...

FeatFollower: I don't think intros/outros are the solution. I can't remember her name, but the woman who made deepthroating porn famous went on and on about how awesome it was. It was only years later when she was out of the porn industry that it became known that she had been viciously beaten by her husband (who was also the director) when she refused to do it. Stuff like that is way too easy to manipulate.

SnowdropExplodes said...

Being kinky does not follow being human.

That's what I felt when I read that line too.

Charitable guy that I am, I chose to read it as a logic statement: IF "being human" AND "being wired that way" THEN "desiring kinky sex". But in plain English it definitely looks like a causal statement: "human", therefore "wired that way", therefore "desiring kinky sex".

The star -err- victim of "Deep Throat" was Linda Lovelace, and yeah - it takes more than just a filmed sequence tacked on to tell the difference between an ethically produced film and a record of crimes against the person.

In terms of what is being portrayed, I too have sometimes been troubled by the spillover of humiliation/slapping/aggression into non-BDSM porn and I do wonder how normalised that is becoming. While I think that porn in general (as a portrayal of sexual acts) definitely does not cause rape or rape culture, I do worry that these aggressive portrayals of sex becoming more widespread may lead to the impression that that is the way sex is "supposed" to be.

I think the only real antidote to these problems is to tackle the issue early, and head-on: in schools, in sex education programmes. I would be showing porn to 12 or 13 year-old kids and talking about what really happens to make a porn film, and why what you see is how NOT to do sex. Because these kids are going to see porn sooner rather than later in modern culture (not to mention the pornified high street in general).

Anonymous said...

This was really good, really well-written, really thought-provoking. Thank you for putting this out there; i have something to think on for a while.

Dw3t-Hthr said...

Charitable guy that I am, I chose to read it as a logic statement: IF "being human" AND "being wired that way" THEN "desiring kinky sex". I can confirm that that is how Mz. Muse intended it to be read.

Orlando C. said...

Right on. I think the line of argument that we're seeing here isn't new. It follows (for instance) Shattuck's arguments that pornography and other "forbidden knowledge" shouldn't be banned outright, but should be restricted to people who can intellectually "handle it," which--in the absence of some major wording to the contrary--would appear to be a code word for class and education, and by proxy, at least, for race.

Trinity said...

"According to RAINN the number of sexual assaults has fallen by more than 60% over the last decade or so. During this same decade, pornography became easier to access than ever before, leaving the 'anti-porn thesis' with no legs left to stand on."

Correlation != causation. Do you have any proof that porn's greater accessibility should be considered a cause?

I'd be thrilled if you did, actually, but you haven't presented it yet.

Jennifer said...

"I would suggest that the cultural shift which has occurred in the past few generations is not the creation of a "rape culture", but a culture in which respectable middle-class women are more likely to be targeted as victims of sexual assault by their peers, and therefore one in which rape has become more visible as a problem."

"a few generations ago they would have been brought up to view their female peers as the "angels in the house" whom they might love or marry and the lower class women in their lives as sex objects who they might fuck, with or without consent."

Ooh, very interesting. I hadn't thought about that before, but it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for writing/propagating it.

As a side note, the possibility that some people are "wired that way" is discussed in Sperm Wars: The Science of Sex.

Jennifer said...

the possibility that some people are "wired that way" is discussed in Sperm Wars: The Science of Sex.actually, just to clarify that: I don't mean that the author discusses kink as such. The book uses a series of illustrative scenarios, and one of them includes sex by force and how the early humans in the scenario might have responded to it. And the context is that this is one genetic "strategy" among many (and not necessarily the most effective, either) for genes to propagate themselves.

(just thought I'd better add that in case someone went and got the book under a false impression of what was in it)

Alexandra Erin said...

@Trinity:

Lack of correlation does imply a lack of causation, though, which I think is what the Anonymous poster was saying. If the theory is that "porn leads to sexual assualt", we should see sexual assault increasing as porn increasing. That we don't undermines their stance to a considerable degree.

a really pedantic lurker said...

@Alexandra Erin: to be utterly pedantic about it, lack of correlation doesn't always imply lack of causation either. (It's a long article, but do a control-f for the diagram labeled "E's chance is unperturbed".)

Becstar said...

There are heaps of statistics of towns where once a/another sex shop has opened the numbers of rapes actually increase. There's also the argument that porn socialises people into reporting rape less. One statistic will never be conclusive. Until a proper recent study is done, I'm still anti-porn (but of course that can't be done because testing it is now illegal because of the psychological damage done to the participants). I'd rather be dafe than sorry.

SnowdropExplodes said...

Becstar:

For every study showing that there is a correlation, there is another showing no correlation, or even a negative correlation. The case is quite definitely "unproven" for any link between sexual media and sexual crime (whether causal or preventative).

But the idea of "being safe rather than sorry" here is undermined by the fact that there are studies that show a preventative link (for example, when Sweden massively relaxed its censorship laws, there was a corresponding decrease in sex crimes) - we don't know which is the "safe" option with respect to pornography.

It seems to me that the determining factor is likely to be something else - that the presence or absence of porn, or sex shops, or other sexual media, coincides with other factors about a society, which combination is what is dangerous or otherwise.

My thesis would be that to prevent rape, censorship is not a high-success strategy, but instead we should be looking to undermine whatever other factors make it happen; chief of which is ideas that a rapist is not responsible for his own actions but that they were "caused" by something else (be that porn, alcohol, a short skirt, or whatever).

I think that proper education about porn given during sex education classes at school would also go a long way to helping to destroy these "helpless beast" notions of masculinity.

EthylBenzene said...

Becstar -- I'm sorry, I just don't think that going down a road of censorship is "safe." The problem with censorship is IMO, not "porn is entirely harmless," but "who decides what is porn?" It is all too easy to imagine the slippery slope that could occur.

Also -- Please provide links to these "heaps of statistics."

Penny said...

Your assumption that young men of privilege no longer take advantage of that privilege by manipulating, assaulting, and raping women of colour, poor women, non-status women, trans women, and other women lacking privilege is unsettling, to say the least. "Any woman" can be seen as sexually available-- but some of us are seen as more sexually available than others. This post seems to imply that forms of oppression other than sexism are over, or irrelevant, and wow, that is *FUCKED*.

Becstar said...

I don't link to the place where the statistics are kept because of trolling. A selection of them are:
A women’s crisis center serving Wahperton, ND reported a 96% increase in domestic violence and sexual assault referrals after a second strip club opened in that town. (Not For Sale)


% of male college students who said they might rape a woman "if they could be assured of getting away with it": 25 to 30% (Donnerstein, 1983) . . . . . . . . . % of college students who said they might after watching 10 hours of rape porn: 57% (Ibid.)

In 1983, Alaska and Nevada had the highest rates of porn mag readership and the highest rape rate. (Baron & Strauss) . . . . . . . . .

Rape in America has risen 500% since 1960. (National Victim Center/National Coalition for the Protection of Women and Families)

56% of the rapists in the second study said they imitated favorite porn scenes during their crimes (Marshall)

Porn was used before, or during, 41% of rapes in Michigan between 1956-1979. (Detective Darrell Pope) . . . . . . . .

After 150 porn shops in Oklahoma City were closed, the city's rape rate declined 27% over 5 years. (NCSP website) . . . . . . . . . Elsewhere in Oklahoma, reported rapes were up 19%. (Ibid.)


I'm also going to assume that most people on here are Americans. Americans have a tendency to overblow personal "rights" at the expense of other's safety, whether that is "freedom of speech" or the "right" to bear arms.

Kirby1024 said...

@Penny: That wasn't what I got from it at all - It didn't seem to me that the writer was writing off all other forms of oppression, merely stating that the increase in sexual freedom gained from the feminist movement has meant that women who were previously had social protections due to social heirarchy, no longer have that protection due to that higher section of the heirachy being deconstructed.

EthylBenzene said...

Becstar, I find most of the stats you quoted highly...suspicious. I also find it suspicious that you "don't" link to where you found them. In addition it seems futile to discuss the matter with you because it is clear you do not respect freedom of speech, giving your snark on "Americans have a tendency to overblow personal "rights" at the expense of other's safety..."

But hey, it's Sunday and I've got little enough else to do. So, Becstar, please lay out your plan for deciding who to appoint to the porn-banning board, how they will decide what "is" and "isn't" porn, and the checks and balances you propose to keep this porn banning board from getting overzealous or using their power to ban speech they personally disagree with.

These "heaps of statistics," now.

"A women’s crisis center serving Wahperton, ND reported a 96% increase in domestic violence and sexual assault referrals after a second strip club opened in that town. (Not For Sale)"

First, it's Whapeton, not WhatpeRton. I'm suspicious initially because this supposed study you quote doesn't spell the name of the town right. Secondly, without reading the study it's impossible to determine whether they accounted for other confounding variables. For example, it is known that in times of economic stress, DV goes up. Was the opening of the second strip club associated with something like the closing of a large employer in town? The city of Whapeton only has 8,586 people, so it seems likely that layoffs at a large local employer could have a large effect on the economic well-being of the town. But of course the main problem with the stat as quoted is that correlation does not imply causation. Let's move on.

"% of male college students who said they might rape a woman "if they could be assured of getting away with it": 25 to 30% (Donnerstein, 1983) . . . . . . . . . % of college students who said they might after watching 10 hours of rape porn: 57% (Ibid.)"

10 HOURS of rape porn? I would like to see some evidence that this is representative of how most people consume porn.

"In 1983, Alaska and Nevada had the highest rates of porn mag readership and the highest rape rate. (Baron & Strauss) . . . . . . . . ."

Correlation does not imply causation. Also, do you not have anything more recent? I mean, not that these studies weren't well-done, I have no idea if they were or not because you refuse to link to them, but it does seem suspicious. Not being an expert on this stuff, I can only speak from experience, but it's sort of like the crap creationists pull where they present really old data that has been debunked. People who don't know better might think it's reputable but the scientific community has long since moved on. Just sayin.

"Rape in America has risen 500% since 1960. (National Victim Center/National Coalition for the Protection of Women and Families)"

That's weird since the very first post on this thread states that according to RAINN, the number of sexual assaults has fallen over hte past decade. Maybe you'd like to explain how these two numbers are so different, since you're the one making the claim.

"56% of the rapists in the second study said they imitated favorite porn scenes during their crimes (Marshall)"

Reminds me of how pot got to be a "gateway" drug -- if you only interview hard drug users and most of them admit to having used pot, it looks really suspicious, eh? But what about all those other people using pot who never move on to harder drugs? I'm sure you get my point here. What does this study tell us about people who consume porn but don't rape? Seems to me all it's doing is fearmongering.

"Porn was used before, or during, 41% of rapes in Michigan between 1956-1979. (Detective Darrell Pope) . . . . . . . ."

Again, studying the use of porn by rapists might be an interesting thing to do, but doesn't tell us a whole lot about whether porn is harmful to the average person, you know, who isn't a rapist.

"After 150 porn shops in Oklahoma City were closed, the city's rape rate declined 27% over 5 years. (NCSP website) . . . . . . . . . Elsewhere in Oklahoma, reported rapes were up 19%. (Ibid.)"

Correlation, causation. Also, 150 out of how many? Also, 27% over 5 years doesn't sound like a whole lot. How did the study correct for confounding variables? How did they come to the determination that these two things are related? I am sure you don't need me to link to the FSM data showing global warming causes a decrease in pirates, right?

Ok that's enough for me today. I'm sure I can go clean the kitchen or something equally worthwhile. Ta!

SnowdropExplodes said...

% of male college students who said they might rape a woman "if they could be assured of getting away with it": 25 to 30% (Donnerstein, 1983) . . . . . . . . . % of college students who said they might after watching 10 hours of rape porn: 57% (Ibid.)

I have heard of this study. It falls foul of some of the same criticisms as Malamuth and others who try to show porn as harmful. It is worth noting that when Malamuth tried to recreate more accurately the likely ways in which porn, including violent or rape porn, might be used, over a longer period of time (i.e. a few weeks) he found that there was no observable effect.

Simple statistics and logic lesson follows:

In 1983, Alaska and Nevada had the highest rates of porn mag readership and the highest rape rate. (Baron & Strauss)

56% of the rapists in the second study said they imitated favorite porn scenes during their crimes (Marshall)

Porn was used before, or during, 41% of rapes in Michigan between 1956-1979. (Detective Darrell Pope)


Here we have the following statement demonstrated three times: "People with a tendency to rape also have a tendency to use sexual media"

Going from this to "therefore, porn causes rape" is like saying "All fire engines are red. My car is red. Therefore, my car is a fire engine."

Given that rape involves sex (in particular sex as a tool of power), and given that rapists enjoy sex without regard for the other person, it seems likely that a rapist would enjoy porn because there is no intimacy involved in watching it. But it does not follow that watching porn in itself will induce in a non-rapist the characteristics of a rapist.

After 150 porn shops in Oklahoma City were closed, the city's rape rate declined 27% over 5 years. (NCSP website) . . . . . . . . . Elsewhere in Oklahoma, reported rapes were up 19%. (Ibid.)

EthylBenzene has already answered most of the points I would have made, but I have another criticism of this study to make, in the same style as EB's: 27% of how many? For example, 27% of 15 is 4 (if you round the figures to the nearest whole number). So, if in year 1 there were 15 rapes, and in year 5 there were 11 rapes, then that's a 27% decrease over 5 years. But what if in year 6 there are 16 rapes? This is like the scare headlines that "Doing X increases risk of heart disease by 50%!" when what it actually does is increase the risk from 2% to 3%.

Wandering around Google looking to put this report into some context, I found some interesting things about Oklahoma City and crime. Not knowing which 5 years the study was conducted in, it is hard to answer this accurately, but I note that Oklahoma City has an unusually high rate of crime for the US (apparently, only 2% of US cities have higher rates of crime).

Rape in America has risen 500% since 1960.

Actually, rape has risen by 312.5% in the USA since 1960, when corrected for the corresponding population increase in the same period. All violent crime has increased by 290.2%, which is a difference of just 7%. What's more, both figures peaked in 1992 and have fallen since then. Noting that these are statistics for reported crimes, we can observe that the trend to increase was at its greatest during the late 1960s and the 1970s. We might conclude from this as a correlation with 2nd Wave feminism, that more victims of rape were coming forward and reporting it instead of remaining quiet about what had happened to them.

And THAT point leads right back to the OP and the ideas raised there.

SnowdropExplodes said...

Oh, I forgot to say:

Statistics found at
Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics

Becstar said...

FInd them suspicious all you like I really don't care. What I do care about is a friend of mine's website continually being harassed by people who are supposedly defending "freedom of speech". Funny how it only applies in certain circumstances isn't it?

Where exactly are your criticisms of the pro-porn "studies" funded by porn companies. You know what, I actually don't care. Support rapists all you like. Given the number of women who are raped because of porn I would not be at all surprised if you soon change your tune when it happens to someone close to you. But oh, that's right, they'll never be able to admit it because rape isn't really rape in this pornified world, its just sex we didn't know we wanted. How silly of me.

EthylBenzene said...

"Support rapists all you like."

LOL! YAY RAPE I LOVE RAPE HUZZAH! Yes I am just ~enamored~ of rape and rapists and live to make rape happen. Listen to yourself, would you? Ok. Anyway. See, I knew there was not really any point in engaging.

But come on. Did you have any *actual* responses to the quite reasonable critiques of these studies you presented, or just more dodging and weaving? Did you even READ mine and SD's responses? Cause, see, I'm seeing a pattern common to a lot of people/causes who've got nothing much on their side besides a lot of emotion -- LACK OF EVIDENCE.

Look you can believe what you want, but to convince other people you need to present something other than easily debunked numbers and fearmongering.

SnowdropExplodes said...

"Given the number of women who are raped because of porn"

But the whole point of the objections is this:

Nobody knows what that number is, or if it even exists!

(Actually, I'm willing to say that it does exist if we include victims of rape caught on camera - e.g. Linda Lovelace - but if we limit this to "women raped because porn is available", then we don't know if the number exists or not).

The most we can say is that IF there is a link between porn and sexual assault, then it is not a straightforward one and there are many other factors involved, which may in fact have a much higher correlation and/or causal effect.

Porn may well be a contributory factor in some rape cases, but it may also be a contributory factor in many other cases where rape didn't happen. The fact of the matter is that we just don't know.

The most compelling evidence seems to me to suggest there is no link, and that to reduce occurrences of rape it is more valuable to look to other areas instead.

subversive_sub said...

WORD. This article bothered me so much when it came out. What really irked me, other than the porn => rape culture correlation, was the way in which she carefully distinguished "good," healthy BDSM from "bad" kinky sex: the good BDSMers are involved in the scene, have been "educated" on proper ways to do things, and buy porn from "fetish shops" rather than a regular sex store. The bad ones, the ones that are to blame for "rape culture," are those that aren't involved with the BDSM scene (and probably don't identify with it at all), haven't been to classes and workshops, and jerk off to whatever they can find on the internet. I just really, really object to this idea that it's only okay to want to involve power play and pain during sex if you ID as a dom or sub and have read "SM 101." It's cliquish and, I'd argue, classist.

Dw3t-Hthr said...

Given the number of women who are raped because of porn
Becstar, this is rape apology. You are placing the responsibility for rape somewhere other than on the rapist. You are giving rapists an excuse, a way out, and one that people who claim that this sort of statement is feminist will applaud.

Please reconsider posting rape apologia. As an assault survivor who knows that she was not attacked by a videotape, I find it triggering.

belledame222 said...

gevalt. becstar, when someone asks you to back up your stats, going "well, I really don't care about that, I care about something else we weren't even talking about a second ago, YOU TOO YOU TOO LALALA FINGERS IN MY EARS" does not signal "I am genuinely trying to communicate here."

and yeah, sorry, -watching porn does not CAUSE rape-, all right? I'm not surprised D's upset by this.

and it's really aggravating, I must say: it looked like this was starting to actually be about something other than one-oh-frigging-one for a change--classism in kink discussions! wow, something ELSE besides trying to argue with intractable radfems! and, gosh, no, can't have that.

Look, I'm sorry to be rude yet again, but I feel like I came in on this exact discussion, with you, about, what was it, some months ago?

belledame222 said...

and yeah, you know what: really, NO, "You'll be sorry when you/a loved one is raped!" Hi: don't fucking assume people already HAVEN'T. And for GOD's sake don't start throwing shit that sounds -way- too much like "I wish rape upon you, because it'll make me feel vindicated." I'm sorry you've been hurt, too, but that's harmful bullshit.

GallingGalla said...

oh 4fuxake, becstar.

i was sexually abused for many years by an ex-partner. yes he had porn. no i am not myself particularly fond of a lot of porn, but that is my personal choice.

my ex's porn did not rape me. my EX raped me. you would excuse him and remove all responsibility for his behavior from him and assign it to some nebulous, unproven Grand Evil. that's not feminism, that's not advocating for victims of sexual assault. that's rape apologism and i personally have no tolerance for that.

Mór Rígan said...

I wasn't raped by porn either. I was raped by two men.

Becstar said...

No, I'm not listening, because all I hear is the verbal abuse of people who are supposedly against it. I've tried, god knows, I've tried to understand your point of view but I've come to the conclusion that it really is not worth listening to when all you do is attack and make excuses for rape. Conversation with you lot has just proven that I was in the right place as a radfem. I'm out of here.

Dw3t-Hthr said...

You know, becstar, not that I expect after your pretty little flounce you'll be back, I personally spent a while talking to you, supporting you, telling you to get the fuck out of your abusive situation, making sure you were aware that you were not alone in your responses to rape, and all that ...

... and you can't even apologise for triggering the fuck out of me.

You are a contemptible piece of shit. You are, in this thread, not only a rape apologist, but someone who has wished rape upon those who disagree with you.

I cannot say that I am sorry that I provided you with psychological comfort and support over the last few weeks, because, unlike you, I actually believe in doing the right thing.

But I wish that you had an ounce of human decency in your twisted, warped soul, enough to actually care what pain you have chosen to inflict upon another human being. I commend you to the forgiveness of the gods, because you will get no forgiveness from me.

I can only hope that you learn to shut your immature yap before you make another survivor feel like I do right now. It's hopeless trying to save you from retraumatising yourself, because "retraumatising" is something you're quite happy to do to a survivor.

I wish I could hate you.

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"No, I'm not listening, because all I hear is the verbal abuse of people who are supposedly against it. I've tried, god knows, I've tried to understand your point of view but I've come to the conclusion that it really is not worth listening to when all you do is attack and make excuses for rape."

That's not something that's coming from most of the people here, Becstar (although I doubt you'll read this, I may as well make the effort).

On both the recent threads where we've discussed issues with you, we have gone out of our way to see things from your angle, and explain to you why things look different from over here. My first post on this thread started by agreeing with your interpretation of a badly-worded phrase in the OP, but explaining how that phrase could have been meant differently. I also agreed with you about Linda Lovelace and intro/outros not being necessarily an answer to the issues.

You brought us statistics and studies - we replied with the same, or with the same worn-out criticisms of those studies, because those criticisms are still valid and no one has yet answered them. But even there, look: I went and found you a source for one of the statistics you used, and carried out a little bit of analysis to show that they don't necessarily mean what you've been told they do.

On the other thread, many people tried to explain things carefully and calmly from our perspective.

When you told us about a situation you're facing that was clearly Not Okay, we were right there to say so, and say, "please get out of that situation ASAP".

If you are perceiving people here as verbally abusive, that is something that you are bringing, it isn't something that we are in any way presenting.

If you feel we are making excuses for rape, then again - that is a conclusion that comes from your worldview, but it is not based on an analysis of what we have actually said. Indeed, as you may have noticed, we said that saying "porn causes rape" is a form of making excuses for rape.

It is hard to leave our own worldviews to one side to look at the other person's point of view. I have tried to do it to understand the anti-porn/anti-BDSM/anti-sex work arguments, but I don't know that I have succeeded.

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"No, I'm not listening, because all I hear is the verbal abuse of people who are supposedly against it. I've tried, god knows, I've tried to understand your point of view but I've come to the conclusion that it really is not worth listening to when all you do is attack and make excuses for rape."

Uhhhh.....are you reading the same threads as everyone else? Because that's, like, the exact ~opposite~ of what has been happening.

Also if you're remotely a decent person (prob not but who knows) you need to apologize to Dw3t-Hthr, like, yesterday.

I mean, come on Becstar, has it totally escaped your notice that people here were really supportive of you in that other thread regarding your relationship? And that you then turned around and wished rape on those very same people to "teach em a lesson" ??

Seriously, I'll say it again -- LISTEN TO YOURSELF!

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